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Posted By: LIRef77 Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/24/19 04:24 PM
Legislators are considering strengthening protections for game officials in all sports due to an increase in assaults and aberrant behavior by adults. A total lack of respect for officials in all sports are causing them to drop out and recruitment is getting so difficult that games are being cancelled due to a lack of officials for school sports and club sports.
While some of you may feel that poor officiating justifies the abuse, what other constructive solutions would you suggest to stem the tide of the outright abuse? Keep in mind that a lot of the parents behavior is embarrassing their own children and is also making their experience an unpleasant one.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/24/19 08:42 PM
Nothing has worked so far including putting the responsibility on the coach or having parents sign a code of conduct. Everyone's fees will increase when they add security to these games. Yes...this is where youth sports is heading unless something changes.

As a high school official, it's alarming seeing our roster size dwindle yearly because of the abuse. Hopefully this legislation passes and starts reversing this trend.

And for the comments asking officials to do a better job, well they are human. If parents just simply keep their mouths shut and watch the game it will be more enjoyable. Don't be the parent everyone is talking about on the ride home.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/24/19 11:38 PM
I do not referee high school games and as a USSF certified referee I officiate club soccer in different leagues.

My opinion is that high school soccer referees are at a distinct disadvantage since the Coaches rate them and this affects their assignments. This is so unfair because it is like the fox guarding the henhouse. This has to have an affect on how referees call games and affect whether they sanction High School Coaches that misbehave and act inappropriately. I know that when my daughter played soccer in middle school and in high school I did not see one yellow card issued in 6 years of her school soccer career. This is not an indictment of high school soccer referees because I believe having Coaches rate referees is unjust and unwise because they are not neutral assessors and may not actually be as knowledgeable of the NFHS rules as referees are. This is a systemic problem. If referees are hesitant to sanction Coaches and hold them responsible for spectators then the inappropriate behavior will continue unabated. It is so ironic that if the children attending our schools behaved like the adults did (during classes) at some games they would be disciplined including suspension.

In club soccer when referees are assessed they are assessed by USSF certified assessors. They are obviously neutral parties and have no skin in the game. Referees do have tools to stop inappropriate behavior and they should not hesitate to use them. My experience is that when you nip it early and sanction the Coach it usually stops. If it escalates and you expel a spectator or Coach everyone gets the message.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/25/19 12:29 AM
As a ussf ref having watched HS games, the officiating of HS games is substandard. Not knowing the whole ball needs to be out of play rather than just on the line is inexcusable. Not knowing indirect vs direct offenses. Granted the two man system is horibble having to officiate in, but are HS officials required to take continuing ed classes?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/25/19 01:37 AM
I have seen ussf refs screw up big time. Giving a pk for a dangerous play call inside the 18 or calling an offside on a first touch from a corner kick. These are calls that parents have no clue what went on so you don't hear a thing from them.

Let's stay on topic bud instead of critiquing other associations.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/25/19 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
I do not referee high school games and as a USSF certified referee I officiate club soccer in different leagues.

My opinion is that high school soccer referees are at a distinct disadvantage since the Coaches rate them and this affects their assignments. This is so unfair because it is like the fox guarding the henhouse. This has to have an affect on how referees call games and affect whether they sanction High School Coaches that misbehave and act inappropriately. I know that when my daughter played soccer in middle school and in high school I did not see one yellow card issued in 6 years of her school soccer career. This is not an indictment of high school soccer referees because I believe having Coaches rate referees is unjust and unwise because they are not neutral assessors and may not actually be as knowledgeable of the NFHS rules as referees are. This is a systemic problem. If referees are hesitant to sanction Coaches and hold them responsible for spectators then the inappropriate behavior will continue unabated. It is so ironic that if the children attending our schools behaved like the adults did (during classes) at some games they would be disciplined including suspension.

In club soccer when referees are assessed they are assessed by USSF certified assessors. They are obviously neutral parties and have no skin in the game. Referees do have tools to stop inappropriate behavior and they should not hesitate to use them. My experience is that when you nip it early and sanction the Coach it usually stops. If it escalates and you expel a spectator or Coach everyone gets the message.



So If you are saying the coaches should not grade referees during "live action" who else do you recommend do this? the spectators? lmao!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/25/19 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
I do not referee high school games and as a USSF certified referee I officiate club soccer in different leagues.

My opinion is that high school soccer referees are at a distinct disadvantage since the Coaches rate them and this affects their assignments. This is so unfair because it is like the fox guarding the henhouse. This has to have an affect on how referees call games and affect whether they sanction High School Coaches that misbehave and act inappropriately. I know that when my daughter played soccer in middle school and in high school I did not see one yellow card issued in 6 years of her school soccer career. This is not an indictment of high school soccer referees because I believe having Coaches rate referees is unjust and unwise because they are not neutral assessors and may not actually be as knowledgeable of the NFHS rules as referees are. This is a systemic problem. If referees are hesitant to sanction Coaches and hold them responsible for spectators then the inappropriate behavior will continue unabated. It is so ironic that if the children attending our schools behaved like the adults did (during classes) at some games they would be disciplined including suspension.

In club soccer when referees are assessed they are assessed by USSF certified assessors. They are obviously neutral parties and have no skin in the game. Referees do have tools to stop inappropriate behavior and they should not hesitate to use them. My experience is that when you nip it early and sanction the Coach it usually stops. If it escalates and you expel a spectator or Coach everyone gets the message.



So If you are saying the coaches should not grade referees during "live action" who else do you recommend do this? the spectators? lmao!

Originally Posted by Anonymous
As a ussf ref having watched HS games, the officiating of HS games is substandard. Not knowing the whole ball needs to be out of play rather than just on the line is inexcusable. Not knowing indirect vs direct offenses. Granted the two man system is horibble having to officiate in, but are HS officials required to take continuing ed classes?

I am not a parent that screams at refs,either H.S or club but I can see why it occurs. There are bad calls, and refs sometimes miss a call or two but when there are clear infractions and refs are obviously favoring one team over another , then what do you expect? Biased refs can ruin a teams season, a chance to make playoffs and everything that goes along with it. If refs can be consistent all would be good.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/25/19 05:20 PM
More referees will retire or quit due to the new grassroots referee program that requires a 4 hour training class.
Its absolutely needed, but many will not re-certify and cannot without taking the class.

One way to retain referees and help new referees would be to have set crews at each field location.
Sending officials from field to field every weekend, 20 - 30 miles away, in other counties is not productive. And many of the AR's don't drive.
It would help to teach new referees as well.

And yes, parents need to stop the nonsense. I mostly see this on the younger side, like U9-U12.
Every call is a complaint. I solve this with a word to the coach or a YC to the coach.
But teenagers are less likely to handle the stress, being new isn't easy, but adults don't tend to respect orders given to them by a 16 year old.

If we increase fees for referees, you may see an increase of signups.

Just my 2 cents.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/25/19 06:14 PM
Lower the costs for first time refs to get involved. Right now any potential new ref has to make a several hundred dollar investment to get on the field. That's a lot of money to kids in their teens that are only going to make $30 a game.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/25/19 07:02 PM
Honestly the best system that works is having a coach silence the parents with the threat of no playing time for your kid. Works well at the club level, high school is tougher as fans are farther from the field. Coach sets the tone, if he yells then the parents yell.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/25/19 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
I do not referee high school games and as a USSF certified referee I officiate club soccer in different leagues.

My opinion is that high school soccer referees are at a distinct disadvantage since the Coaches rate them and this affects their assignments. This is so unfair because it is like the fox guarding the henhouse. This has to have an affect on how referees call games and affect whether they sanction High School Coaches that misbehave and act inappropriately. I know that when my daughter played soccer in middle school and in high school I did not see one yellow card issued in 6 years of her school soccer career. This is not an indictment of high school soccer referees because I believe having Coaches rate referees is unjust and unwise because they are not neutral assessors and may not actually be as knowledgeable of the NFHS rules as referees are. This is a systemic problem. If referees are hesitant to sanction Coaches and hold them responsible for spectators then the inappropriate behavior will continue unabated. It is so ironic that if the children attending our schools behaved like the adults did (during classes) at some games they would be disciplined including suspension.

In club soccer when referees are assessed they are assessed by USSF certified assessors. They are obviously neutral parties and have no skin in the game. Referees do have tools to stop inappropriate behavior and they should not hesitate to use them. My experience is that when you nip it early and sanction the Coach it usually stops. If it escalates and you expel a spectator or Coach everyone gets the message.


This is terrible. I often find that in violent or physical games, the ref just refuses to pull out cards until someone gets hurt or someone crosses a line... why don't more refs pull out cards earlier or warn the parents earlier to curb the behavior?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/25/19 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
I do not referee high school games and as a USSF certified referee I officiate club soccer in different leagues.

My opinion is that high school soccer referees are at a distinct disadvantage since the Coaches rate them and this affects their assignments. This is so unfair because it is like the fox guarding the henhouse. This has to have an affect on how referees call games and affect whether they sanction High School Coaches that misbehave and act inappropriately. I know that when my daughter played soccer in middle school and in high school I did not see one yellow card issued in 6 years of her school soccer career. This is not an indictment of high school soccer referees because I believe having Coaches rate referees is unjust and unwise because they are not neutral assessors and may not actually be as knowledgeable of the NFHS rules as referees are. This is a systemic problem. If referees are hesitant to sanction Coaches and hold them responsible for spectators then the inappropriate behavior will continue unabated. It is so ironic that if the children attending our schools behaved like the adults did (during classes) at some games they would be disciplined including suspension.

In club soccer when referees are assessed they are assessed by USSF certified assessors. They are obviously neutral parties and have no skin in the game. Referees do have tools to stop inappropriate behavior and they should not hesitate to use them. My experience is that when you nip it early and sanction the Coach it usually stops. If it escalates and you expel a spectator or Coach everyone gets the message.


This is terrible. I often find that in violent or physical games, the ref just refuses to pull out cards until someone gets hurt or someone crosses a line... why don't more refs pull out cards earlier or warn the parents earlier to curb the behavior?

Why doesn't the ref pull out cards to players early in the game? This sets the tone that he won't tolerate dirty play.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
I do not referee high school games and as a USSF certified referee I officiate club soccer in different leagues.

My opinion is that high school soccer referees are at a distinct disadvantage since the Coaches rate them and this affects their assignments. This is so unfair because it is like the fox guarding the henhouse. This has to have an affect on how referees call games and affect whether they sanction High School Coaches that misbehave and act inappropriately. I know that when my daughter played soccer in middle school and in high school I did not see one yellow card issued in 6 years of her school soccer career. This is not an indictment of high school soccer referees because I believe having Coaches rate referees is unjust and unwise because they are not neutral assessors and may not actually be as knowledgeable of the NFHS rules as referees are. This is a systemic problem. If referees are hesitant to sanction Coaches and hold them responsible for spectators then the inappropriate behavior will continue unabated. It is so ironic that if the children attending our schools behaved like the adults did (during classes) at some games they would be disciplined including suspension.

In club soccer when referees are assessed they are assessed by USSF certified assessors. They are obviously neutral parties and have no skin in the game. Referees do have tools to stop inappropriate behavior and they should not hesitate to use them. My experience is that when you nip it early and sanction the Coach it usually stops. If it escalates and you expel a spectator or Coach everyone gets the message.



So If you are saying the coaches should not grade referees during "live action" who else do you recommend do this? the spectators? lmao!


I will answer your question since you obviously missed my point! Coaches are NOT neutral observers and are not that knowledgeable of the rules. Again, high school referees assignments are based on the evaluations given them by the Coaches. Coaches are biased and have skin in the game they are not objective evaluators. It’s not exactly the same but it would be like allowing defendants to appoint their judges! How do you not get that? Use other referees or instructors familiar with the rules that can be objective and that have no interest in the outcome of the game. Pretty simple!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 02:04 AM
Bad examples are also provided by professional players. Disgusting discussions and chasing after refs at almost every call.
It's sometimes actually comical when defenders raise their hands to indicate possible offside instead playing to the whistle.
The governing bodies should introduce rules that refs are to call, players are to play. The way it is more or less in pro/college
basketball and football.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 04:23 AM
It’s about mutual respect. If the ref respects the game and the players, it will work both ways. When the game flows, the spectators settle down and enjoy it. A ref is like an orchestra conductor. You have the same instruments, players and music, yet any two conductors will produce different results. A great ref orchestrates a game that works for everyone. There are two extremes. At the one end is the ref who wants to see the game blossom , at the other is a ref who loves to catch fouls, is able to hand out a few cards and makes sure he ejects the wise ass kid who thinks he is a hot shot. Refs who play or who have played, see the game in a whole different way and the kids know them immediately. Those refs explain their decisions, give the players room to express themselves politely and clarify what they are doing so all can understand the calls. There are too many refs out there who know only the rules and who do it for the money. But they get all the games because they are always available. It’s way too easy to assign ten games a weekend to refs who already have ten thousand under their belt but unfortunately the kids dread those games. When they see a young, fit crew who obviously play, there is a palpable buzz in the air and the game hums. LISRA and the assignors, who are paid well to set these games, need to get together and make a plan to attract and keep the best young player-refs who actually know what they are doing. You’ll have less anger on the sidelines and quality games you aren’t seeing now. A seventeen year old ref who clearly plays and knows his game and is faster than the players will usually command more respect in a U17 game than an old puffing billy with a quick card hand. But you know who gets first refusal on those games? Exactly. Way too easy. Step up LISRA, this football is in your court.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 01:25 PM
A few thoughts coming from someone with three teen/.young adult refs

- Even under the best of circumstances some kids just aren't cut out for it. Sorry but it's reality. It may sound like an easy way to make money but young refs need to be very self assured because they will face tough pushback by adults (coaches and parents). Know your kid before pushing/encouraging them to become a ref. This also applies to what level they ref or taking a CR spot vs AR. One of mine only does lower level games because the parents are more tolerable and it just fits better with their particular laid back personality.

- New refs are basically thrown in with the wolves right away. I would like to see new refs be assigned with older, more experienced refs for an entire season, not just a game or two. Now only will they get more feedback but it will improve their comfort level and confidence.

- HS reffing is a real challenge because afternoon games greatly restricts the ref pool. Just like anywhere else, the abuse and arguments are driving these experienced adult refs out. Parent behavior here can be much worse because there is more at stake (playoffs) and there's more parents of multisport athletes that really don't soccer rules. Coaches and ADs need to reign in abusive adults at games.

- Parents need to chill the f**k out. It's youth soccer. In the long run none of it really matters. Yes sometimes refs make mistakes. They are human and not even FIFA pro refs get it right all the time. It's part of game Expect perfection and you'll always be disappointed. Out of control parents is a broader societal issue, not just a soccer one. What are you yelling about? Are you encouraging of your player/teammates, or critical? If you have critique for your own player, talk about it well after game. Don't criticize other people's kids - you're not the coach and nothing will ostracize your faster with other parents. How many of you are highly trained refs that know the rules inside and out? How many of you are close enough to actually see what happened? I'll never forget when a friend accidentally butt dialed his wife while at a game and the message captured him yelling for many minutes. She played it for him and he was mortified. Listen to yourselves.

- ^ Same with coaches. Unless there is genuine concern for player safety, coaches should check themselves. All three of my refs have had coaches say horrific things to them and not always during a game but after, which doesn't make it any better. There's ways to offer advice without being a dik. Do you really think a ref will change their mind on a call because you disagree with them? Can you really see the line of play on an offside call when you're standing at the bench? Coaches also bear a responsibility to keep bad parent behavior in check. Parents screaming at refs shouldn't be tolerated by coaches/clubs and coaches need to lead to by example.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 02:11 PM
Lisra takes no accountability! The clubs should takeover the duty of hiring referees for their respective clubs! Then work with the schools who allow clubs to use fields. This will give more people the responsibility of employing and taking responsibility for their own refs. Right now we have 1 small group of morons assigning refs to align their own pockets. Nick Apostilitis must go!
Posted By: Larry Miller Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Lisra takes no accountability! The clubs should takeover the duty of hiring referees for their respective clubs! Then work with the schools who allow clubs to use fields. This will give more people the responsibility of employing and taking responsibility for their own refs. Right now we have 1 small group of morons assigning refs to align their own pockets. Nick Apostilitis must go!


Are Nick & Nancy still around? If you recall, Nick & Nancy were embedded in the LIJSL office and were submissive to Peter Collins and Joan Czach.

Years ago, Mario Maltese ran LISRA and did it well. At that time BOTN helped with ref recruiting. After Mario left, Joan Czach put pressure on LISRA to not interact with BOTN. This BOTN ban continued with Cathy Caldwell, and John Senelglaub. BOTN could have been a huge resource for LISRA and ref recruiting in general.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Lisra takes no accountability! The clubs should takeover the duty of hiring referees for their respective clubs! Then work with the schools who allow clubs to use fields. This will give more people the responsibility of employing and taking responsibility for their own refs. Right now we have 1 small group of morons assigning refs to align their own pockets. Nick Apostilitis must go!


Are Nick & Nancy still around? If you recall, Nick & Nancy were embedded in the LIJSL office and were submissive to Peter Collins and Joan Czach.

Years ago, Mario Maltese ran LISRA and did it well. At that time BOTN helped with ref recruiting. After Mario left, Joan Czach put pressure on LISRA to not interact with BOTN. This BOTN ban continued with Cathy Caldwell, and John Senelglaub. BOTN could have been a huge resource for LISRA and ref recruiting in general.



I wish you could get involved again, there's not enough effort going on, both in terms of recruiting and assigning. Remember, assignors are picking up something like $13 per game, every game, for a three man team, so to give a whole day to one ref who has nothing else to do, is a lot easier than picking out refs to promote and offering them spots .An active club player can't be available for the whole day, both weekend days, so he's not attractive to the assignors. Agreed with the earlier poster that not all teens are cut out to ref but there are some good ones who are keen and they are frustrated that it's so hard to pick up games.
Posted By: Larry Miller Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Lisra takes no accountability! The clubs should takeover the duty of hiring referees for their respective clubs! Then work with the schools who allow clubs to use fields. This will give more people the responsibility of employing and taking responsibility for their own refs. Right now we have 1 small group of morons assigning refs to align their own pockets. Nick Apostilitis must go!


Are Nick & Nancy still around? If you recall, Nick & Nancy were embedded in the LIJSL office and were submissive to Peter Collins and Joan Czach.

Years ago, Mario Maltese ran LISRA and did it well. At that time BOTN helped with ref recruiting. After Mario left, Joan Czach put pressure on LISRA to not interact with BOTN. This BOTN ban continued with Cathy Caldwell, and John Senelglaub. BOTN could have been a huge resource for LISRA and ref recruiting in general.



I wish you could get involved again, there's not enough effort going on, both in terms of recruiting and assigning. Remember, assignors are picking up something like $13 per game, every game, for a three man team, so to give a whole day to one ref who has nothing else to do, is a lot easier than picking out refs to promote and offering them spots .An active club player can't be available for the whole day, both weekend days, so he's not attractive to the assignors. Agreed with the earlier poster that not all teens are cut out to ref but there are some good ones who are keen and they are frustrated that it's so hard to pick up games.


I do not know if Cathy Caldwell is still heading LISRA, but I was not going to kiss her ass to help. My last communique with Mistress Cathy was her telling me she will get back to me...and that was about 5 years ago. I would also point out the the State Referee Association run out of ENYYSA was like a mafia run organization years ago, and while I longer pay attention to them, I'm sure much has not changed.

As far as High School refs go, I have not had any interaction with them over the almost 30 years of BOTN.

I should also mentioned in my original post, Lou Minutoli who was a regular contributor to BOTN at our start and the first referee to administer the "Ask The Ref" forum. Lou was an exemplary referee and did much to grow LISRA 20+ years ago. IMO, it was or is John Senelglaub along with Cathy Caldwell that denigrated LISRA and the education and quality, as well as the marketing of LISRA.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 03:15 PM
Teachers coach for many reasons and know they can pad their pensions with coaching. Maybe offer a similar situation to the teachers for being a ref could possibly help attract more qualified individuals? Larry- your thoughts?
Posted By: Larry Miller Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Teachers coach for many reasons and know they can pad their pensions with coaching. Maybe offer a similar situation to the teachers for being a ref could possibly help attract more qualified individuals? Larry- your thoughts?


The issue of quality and competence would still remain an issue with high schools. Teachers getting first dibs on coaching has been very successful and has numerous detractors which is justifiable.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Teachers coach for many reasons and know they can pad their pensions with coaching. Maybe offer a similar situation to the teachers for being a ref could possibly help attract more qualified individuals? Larry- your thoughts?


The issue of quality and competence would still remain an issue with high schools. Teachers getting first dibs on coaching has been very successful and has numerous detractors which is justifiable.


At the end of the day being a teacher/coach/referee does not always equal competence. in the end the person has the Talent to be a great coach or Referee or he is not. Talent is Talent you cant teach it, you cant train it, and you cant test for it.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 05:44 PM
I was a LISRA Ref for 10 years, started when I was in my early 30s. A few examples of why I stopped doing it: I was reffing a U12/13 tournament game, was a tight game until the end, I called a foul that probably wasn't a foul. Was in decent position and within 10 yards to make the call, wasn't 40 yards away making a call. I'm human, not a robot. Team took the free kick and scored. They ended up winning the game, which was a recreational youth Travel Soccer Game, not the World Cup or MLS Cup Final . One of the Grandparents from the losing team came over to me and my nephew as we were getting ready for the next game. He asked me and I quote "What do you do for a living?" I responded politely and said I work for the City. He then said and I quote, "Do you do your job for the City as bad as you just reffed this game?" I was taken aback by the comment but I politely said, "Thank you for the kind words but if you can excuse me I have to get ready for my 2nd of 5 games that day." Another example, I was working as a Center Ref with a new Assistant Referee who was working their first game. Because of my experience, I was given these new Assistant Referees from time to time to help them grow and learn. Had to be 14 or 15 years old. As the game was going on, parents really started getting on this new referee to the point where this new young new referee started shaking and crying. I had to stop the game, walk over to the sideline and first talk to this referee and calm them down. Once I was able to do that, I then told these parents, "Please give this referee a break, it's their very first game, he/she is trying his/her best" I warned the parents, if this continues, I am going to end this game. I even had to move them away to the other half of the field. It shouldn't be this hard to referee youth soccer but it is. Obviously their were other incidences like "I'm going to wait for you in the parking lot." Really? I was a grade 7 and was assessed and passed to become a Grade 6 but chose not to pursue it further. I was given mostly high level games and the tough rivalry games as well but most of the abuse was not from these types of games, they were from the lower level games mostly. It's not any easy gig which is why there's a shortage. I think referees have taken abuse long enough, I was advocating that all referees show up to the field one day, check the teams in, get ready to start and when we are about to blow the whistle, drop the whistle on the floor and walk off the field as a sign of unity and being fed up with all this abuse. Let the parents/coaches figure it out.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Lisra takes no accountability! The clubs should takeover the duty of hiring referees for their respective clubs! Then work with the schools who allow clubs to use fields. This will give more people the responsibility of employing and taking responsibility for their own refs. Right now we have 1 small group of morons assigning refs to align their own pockets. Nick Apostilitis must go!


You can choose different suspects to blame but it does not solve the main issue. On Long Island they have been running classes almost every month of the year, It’s like trying to bail out the ocean. Coaches and clubs take the class. Young people take the class. Former players take the class. Then they try to do it and while it is not for every one the drop out/attrition rate is astounding. No one wants to be abused. No matter how new you are the shortage is acute and not every referee out there can start out being perfect or even good. it takes a few years to fully develop and it takes mistakes to learn and become better just like a player. But there is no patience for that. This region is not alone it is a national problem and many parties are involved trying to find a solution. At times the atmosphere can be toxic and the key demographic (teenagers) do not want to put up with it. When I have young ARs work a game with me I ask them if they want to become Center Referees starting with small sided fields. 99% of them are NOT willing to do it because they do not want to deal with the madness! As mentioned before try recording just the sounds of the game and you will hear evidence of a horrible atmosphere as if every game is the World Cup!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Lisra takes no accountability! The clubs should takeover the duty of hiring referees for their respective clubs! Then work with the schools who allow clubs to use fields. This will give more people the responsibility of employing and taking responsibility for their own refs. Right now we have 1 small group of morons assigning refs to align their own pockets. Nick Apostilitis must go!


Having clubs hiring refs would be a disaster. The volunteer administrators are already very overworked and the smaller clubs would struggle mightily in finding refs willing to work their games.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Teachers coach for many reasons and know they can pad their pensions with coaching. Maybe offer a similar situation to the teachers for being a ref could possibly help attract more qualified individuals? Larry- your thoughts?


The issue of quality and competence would still remain an issue with high schools. Teachers getting first dibs on coaching has been very successful and has numerous detractors which is justifiable.


At the end of the day being a teacher/coach/referee does not always equal competence. in the end the person has the Talent to be a great coach or Referee or he is not. Talent is Talent you cant teach it, you cant train it, and you cant test for it.



I don't necessarily disagree however we are discussing a couple of different topics. Many refs may drop the ball of not knowing the rules etc. However, I believe we need a larger ref "pool" to make it more competitive and something to make it more enticing for individuals wanting to ref. If someone has been a ref for 10 plus years after retirement doesn't necessarily make them better than a a younger ref with a couple of years experience. The bottom line is there needs to be a better way to recruit people to ref.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Lisra takes no accountability! The clubs should takeover the duty of hiring referees for their respective clubs! Then work with the schools who allow clubs to use fields. This will give more people the responsibility of employing and taking responsibility for their own refs. Right now we have 1 small group of morons assigning refs to align their own pockets. Nick Apostilitis must go!


You can choose different suspects to blame but it does not solve the main issue. On Long Island they have been running classes almost every month of the year, It’s like trying to bail out the ocean. Coaches and clubs take the class. Young people take the class. Former players take the class. Then they try to do it and while it is not for every one the drop out/attrition rate is astounding. No one wants to be abused. No matter how new you are the shortage is acute and not every referee out there can start out being perfect or even good. it takes a few years to fully develop and it takes mistakes to learn and become better just like a player. But there is no patience for that. This region is not alone it is a national problem and many parties are involved trying to find a solution. At times the atmosphere can be toxic and the key demographic (teenagers) do not want to put up with it. When I have young ARs work a game with me I ask them if they want to become Center Referees starting with small sided fields. 99% of them are NOT willing to do it because they do not want to deal with the madness! As mentioned before try recording just the sounds of the game and you will hear evidence of a horrible atmosphere as if every game is the World Cup!


I wonder if in addition to cont. education and experience perhaps make it mandatory for the ARs to wear ear plugs? They are cheap, you can call the game as you see it. and you will not hear any BS from the parents on the sidelines. (Personally if a 15 year old kid told me to stfu I will have such respect for the kid, It takes guts to do this so good for him/her).
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Lisra takes no accountability! The clubs should takeover the duty of hiring referees for their respective clubs! Then work with the schools who allow clubs to use fields. This will give more people the responsibility of employing and taking responsibility for their own refs. Right now we have 1 small group of morons assigning refs to align their own pockets. Nick Apostilitis must go!


You can choose different suspects to blame but it does not solve the main issue. On Long Island they have been running classes almost every month of the year, It’s like trying to bail out the ocean. Coaches and clubs take the class. Young people take the class. Former players take the class. Then they try to do it and while it is not for every one the drop out/attrition rate is astounding. No one wants to be abused. No matter how new you are the shortage is acute and not every referee out there can start out being perfect or even good. it takes a few years to fully develop and it takes mistakes to learn and become better just like a player. But there is no patience for that. This region is not alone it is a national problem and many parties are involved trying to find a solution. At times the atmosphere can be toxic and the key demographic (teenagers) do not want to put up with it. When I have young ARs work a game with me I ask them if they want to become Center Referees starting with small sided fields. 99% of them are NOT willing to do it because they do not want to deal with the madness! As mentioned before try recording just the sounds of the game and you will hear evidence of a horrible atmosphere as if every game is the World Cup!



OK, so yours was the original question and you asked for constructive ideas. I'm trying. I think we can agree the assigning is shambolic and LISRA is not a streamlined marketing organization, so there's not enough serious effort to attract talent. You need way higher numbers coming in. The attrition rate is high and part of that is that LISRA gives new refs a course which anyone (even a non-player) can pass with their eyes shut and then throws refs out onto the field with little or no practical training, especially in handling hecklers and reading fouls properly. It seems as if you are saying that at entry level, we need to have a firm set of structured on the field training procedures, with designated ref trainers who are invested in bringing up the new generation of ARs to be great CRs, once they can drive, instead of leaving them to fend for themselves. How many make it now, by the way? I have definitely seen a lot of ARs who are done with it after a couple of seasons, boredom and lack of support being also a part of it. Maybe you should put this out at the Christmas meeting? Then what about the other end of the age scale? There are so many jaded refs out there who seem hostile toward the players as soon as they set foot on the field. Were you at the LISRA meeting where the main subject was that all a ref has to do for certain is to check the goals, keep time and point out when the ball is out of play - everything else is subjective? The hostility to that presentation was unbelievable. How many refs watch the game for fun? Clearly we need more refs and better refs who are trained to handle the idiots in the crowd who do it for the love of the sport. They are sorely missing. Hopefully you too, are a soccer fan as well as a ref. Guessing you wouldn't be reaching out otherwise. It seems that the people making the most money out of the game - the leagues, the assignors and LISRA with all its membership dues are letting themselves and us down by not working at this issue properly. Have you seen the LISRA website recently? It's a disgrace and their service to refs is cursory at best. The answer may be within. How about you all work out the numbers, set an agenda, create a target list of young and older entrants and then how about you build some sort of online exchange, in tandem with the leagues, where we encourage refs from out of state who are at college in LI, or even college students here who would like to learn and earn, who can come in and add fresh legs to the HS games when the rest of the ref world is working? It's a business, let's take a business approach. That's the best I got for now. Good luck and see you next season, one more week to go.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 08:26 PM
Move the parents sideline back 50 yards. And the coaches sideline back 25 yards.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
I do not referee high school games and as a USSF certified referee I officiate club soccer in different leagues.

My opinion is that high school soccer referees are at a distinct disadvantage since the Coaches rate them and this affects their assignments. This is so unfair because it is like the fox guarding the henhouse. This has to have an affect on how referees call games and affect whether they sanction High School Coaches that misbehave and act inappropriately. I know that when my daughter played soccer in middle school and in high school I did not see one yellow card issued in 6 years of her school soccer career. This is not an indictment of high school soccer referees because I believe having Coaches rate referees is unjust and unwise because they are not neutral assessors and may not actually be as knowledgeable of the NFHS rules as referees are. This is a systemic problem. If referees are hesitant to sanction Coaches and hold them responsible for spectators then the inappropriate behavior will continue unabated. It is so ironic that if the children attending our schools behaved like the adults did (during classes) at some games they would be disciplined including suspension.

In club soccer when referees are assessed they are assessed by USSF certified assessors. They are obviously neutral parties and have no skin in the game. Referees do have tools to stop inappropriate behavior and they should not hesitate to use them. My experience is that when you nip it early and sanction the Coach it usually stops. If it escalates and you expel a spectator or Coach everyone gets the message.


I umpired baseball in high school, the league umpire coordinator said warn the coaches about their parents after too much nonsense, if it continued halt the game and give THE COACH the opportunity to have the parent leave, if that did not work forfeit the game and award the win to the other team. After the first or second forfeit the parents knew to behave when I umpired. And the league umpire coordinator stood behind his umpires' decisions.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/26/19 11:34 PM
Absolutely right, you have to nip it in the bud and not ignore it when it gets bad. Soccer referees don’t need to have rabbit ears but I find that when one spectator is especially troublesome and irresponsibly inappropriate and loud enough for the entire field to hear him then you need to do something.

Once you show the Coach a yellow card and eject the spectator everybody gets it right away. I don’t like ejecting a parent because it is very embarrassing for the player but if I need to do it I will not hesitate. If you continue to allow it then the crowd chimes in because they think the heckler knows what he’s doing and it becomes an angry mob and you can lose control of the game. Once you eliminate the problem the crowd really gets it and settles down.

I try to be that friendly referee that shows respect to all and I referee for the players, I am there for them and for the game and will not allow a bully to ruin it.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/27/19 12:46 AM
Good for you these parents need to stop this. Coached youth soccer for the last 15 years and seen it all. When my teams play it's there game not the coach or the parents its so sad and needs to stop.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/27/19 03:49 PM
LISRA does not assign referees. The USSF assignors assign officials. My opinion is that all small sided games should use a parent official and everything else U-13 and above use USSF referees.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/27/19 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Lisra takes no accountability! The clubs should takeover the duty of hiring referees for their respective clubs! Then work with the schools who allow clubs to use fields. This will give more people the responsibility of employing and taking responsibility for their own refs. Right now we have 1 small group of morons assigning refs to align their own pockets. Nick Apostilitis must go!


You can choose different suspects to blame but it does not solve the main issue. On Long Island they have been running classes almost every month of the year, It’s like trying to bail out the ocean. Coaches and clubs take the class. Young people take the class. Former players take the class. Then they try to do it and while it is not for every one the drop out/attrition rate is astounding. No one wants to be abused. No matter how new you are the shortage is acute and not every referee out there can start out being perfect or even good. it takes a few years to fully develop and it takes mistakes to learn and become better just like a player. But there is no patience for that. This region is not alone it is a national problem and many parties are involved trying to find a solution. At times the atmosphere can be toxic and the key demographic (teenagers) do not want to put up with it. When I have young ARs work a game with me I ask them if they want to become Center Referees starting with small sided fields. 99% of them are NOT willing to do it because they do not want to deal with the madness! As mentioned before try recording just the sounds of the game and you will hear evidence of a horrible atmosphere as if every game is the World Cup!



OK, so yours was the original question and you asked for constructive ideas. I'm trying. I think we can agree the assigning is shambolic and LISRA is not a streamlined marketing organization, so there's not enough serious effort to attract talent. You need way higher numbers coming in. The attrition rate is high and part of that is that LISRA gives new refs a course which anyone (even a non-player) can pass with their eyes shut and then throws refs out onto the field with little or no practical training, especially in handling hecklers and reading fouls properly. It seems as if you are saying that at entry level, we need to have a firm set of structured on the field training procedures, with designated ref trainers who are invested in bringing up the new generation of ARs to be great CRs, once they can drive, instead of leaving them to fend for themselves. How many make it now, by the way? I have definitely seen a lot of ARs who are done with it after a couple of seasons, boredom and lack of support being also a part of it. Maybe you should put this out at the Christmas meeting? Then what about the other end of the age scale? There are so many jaded refs out there who seem hostile toward the players as soon as they set foot on the field. Were you at the LISRA meeting where the main subject was that all a ref has to do for certain is to check the goals, keep time and point out when the ball is out of play - everything else is subjective? The hostility to that presentation was unbelievable. How many refs watch the game for fun? Clearly we need more refs and better refs who are trained to handle the idiots in the crowd who do it for the love of the sport. They are sorely missing. Hopefully you too, are a soccer fan as well as a ref. Guessing you wouldn't be reaching out otherwise. It seems that the people making the most money out of the game - the leagues, the assignors and LISRA with all its membership dues are letting themselves and us down by not working at this issue properly. Have you seen the LISRA website recently? It's a disgrace and their service to refs is cursory at best. The answer may be within. How about you all work out the numbers, set an agenda, create a target list of young and older entrants and then how about you build some sort of online exchange, in tandem with the leagues, where we encourage refs from out of state who are at college in LI, or even college students here who would like to learn and earn, who can come in and add fresh legs to the HS games when the rest of the ref world is working? It's a business, let's take a business approach. That's the best I got for now. Good luck and see you next season, one more week to go.


Perhaps you have some ideas that LISRA hasnt thought of? Step up then and be a part of the solution... not the problem. One other thing to understand is now LISRA no longer sets any referee courses. Everything is done by ENY with the changes to Grassroots. So perhaps you should be asking them why the number of officials will be significantly down on Long Island this upcoming season?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/27/19 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Absolutely right, you have to nip it in the bud and not ignore it when it gets bad. Soccer referees don’t need to have rabbit ears but I find that when one spectator is especially troublesome and irresponsibly inappropriate and loud enough for the entire field to hear him then you need to do something.

Once you show the Coach a yellow card and eject the spectator everybody gets it right away. I don’t like ejecting a parent because it is very embarrassing for the player but if I need to do it I will not hesitate. If you continue to allow it then the crowd chimes in because they think the heckler knows what he’s doing and it becomes an angry mob and you can lose control of the game. Once you eliminate the problem the crowd really gets it and settles down.

I try to be that friendly referee that shows respect to all and I referee for the players, I am there for them and for the game and will not allow a bully to ruin it.


Legit question - how much is tolerable? You'll always get "hey ref that's a terrible call". Where do you draw the line? (cursing, getting personal, etc)
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/27/19 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Absolutely right, you have to nip it in the bud and not ignore it when it gets bad. Soccer referees don’t need to have rabbit ears but I find that when one spectator is especially troublesome and irresponsibly inappropriate and loud enough for the entire field to hear him then you need to do something.

Once you show the Coach a yellow card and eject the spectator everybody gets it right away. I don’t like ejecting a parent because it is very embarrassing for the player but if I need to do it I will not hesitate. If you continue to allow it then the crowd chimes in because they think the heckler knows what he’s doing and it becomes an angry mob and you can lose control of the game. Once you eliminate the problem the crowd really gets it and settles down.

I try to be that friendly referee that shows respect to all and I referee for the players, I am there for them and for the game and will not allow a bully to ruin it.


sorry, are you doing this for free? If Yes, God Bless You, You are awesome. If No, You are not there for the players or for anyone else. (as it should be). You have a job to do, so just do it well.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/27/19 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Absolutely right, you have to nip it in the bud and not ignore it when it gets bad. Soccer referees don’t need to have rabbit ears but I find that when one spectator is especially troublesome and irresponsibly inappropriate and loud enough for the entire field to hear him then you need to do something.

Once you show the Coach a yellow card and eject the spectator everybody gets it right away. I don’t like ejecting a parent because it is very embarrassing for the player but if I need to do it I will not hesitate. If you continue to allow it then the crowd chimes in because they think the heckler knows what he’s doing and it becomes an angry mob and you can lose control of the game. Once you eliminate the problem the crowd really gets it and settles down.

I try to be that friendly referee that shows respect to all and I referee for the players, I am there for them and for the game and will not allow a bully to ruin it.


sorry, are you doing this for free? If Yes, God Bless You, You are awesome. If No, You are not there for the players or for anyone else. (as it should be). You have a job to do, so just do it well.



Actually, no it shouldn't be. Any ref who is just there for the money is a crap ref and those are the ones we should say goodbye to. A good ref is there for the game because they love it and reffing is as much fun as playing, when it's done right. The money makes it worthwhile but it's not exactly an income, it's a paid hobby, so to call it a job shows a level of naivete consistent with the arrogant twats who shout garbage from the sidelines week in, week out. How about doing being a spectator well and you might have more refs who want to run your games and then we wouldn't need to be having this conversation. See original post. Instead we go back to the constant cycle of parents v refs v parents. Try being more civil and show some empathy, it goes a long way.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/27/19 08:04 PM
Certain games are going to be more intense than others, get a better handle on the rivalries and assign the more qualified refs to these games.

DON'T assign the same coaches to ref the same team.

Some varsity games should play at night to get a better referee pool.

You want to stop the parents - control the game. Watch for the hits after the play. We don't want anyone getting hurt, problem is, the stands can see the hanky panky that the refs do not.

Nine times out ten the retaliatory hit gets caught... By this time the ref has lost control of the game. Everyone's emotions are then running high.

Use common sense, it's a fine line calling every little thing and letting them play.

For physical teams, put an official in the stands to see what the issues are so better assessments can be made to correct the problems.

Let teams submit videos of questionable calls and have officials explain their reasoning in a constructive manner. Can't change the outcome of the game, but can see what frustrations is seen.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/27/19 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Absolutely right, you have to nip it in the bud and not ignore it when it gets bad. Soccer referees don’t need to have rabbit ears but I find that when one spectator is especially troublesome and irresponsibly inappropriate and loud enough for the entire field to hear him then you need to do something.

Once you show the Coach a yellow card and eject the spectator everybody gets it right away. I don’t like ejecting a parent because it is very embarrassing for the player but if I need to do it I will not hesitate. If you continue to allow it then the crowd chimes in because they think the heckler knows what he’s doing and it becomes an angry mob and you can lose control of the game. Once you eliminate the problem the crowd really gets it and settles down.

I try to be that friendly referee that shows respect to all and I referee for the players, I am there for them and for the game and will not allow a bully to ruin it.


sorry, are you doing this for free? If Yes, God Bless You, You are awesome. If No, You are not there for the players or for anyone else. (as it should be). You have a job to do, so just do it well.


Let me translate for the intellectually challenged-Yes I am there to do a job and I do get paid for it even though I don’t do it for the money because they don’t pay me enough to deal with rude people like you. What are you doing for the game?

Here’s why I do it for the players. As a former player and Coach I am there to do a job yes, but I am there for the players and the game because my job is to keep the players SAFE and call fouls when I see them. So I am there for the players to call a FAIR game and to keep it FAIR. I am also there to maintain the integrity of the game and to enforce the laws of the game. That is why I recertify every year and take a written test, nothing about being a referee is easy because if it was EVERYONE would do it. Not everyone can do it well and I take pride in the fact that I give it my all, have fun doing it and have laughs with the Coaches and players because I am also a human being. But my mantra is that I AM there for the players because I am NOT there for rude unsporting spectators and rude Coaches. Don’t tell me why I am there, I know my purpose because without the players there is no game so I try to blend in and do my job well so that everyone else has fun watching and playing and if I do that well nobody notices me and they are focused on the players. Do you understand MR. Anonymous? The game is ALL ABOUT THE PLAYERS!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/27/19 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Absolutely right, you have to nip it in the bud and not ignore it when it gets bad. Soccer referees don’t need to have rabbit ears but I find that when one spectator is especially troublesome and irresponsibly inappropriate and loud enough for the entire field to hear him then you need to do something.

Once you show the Coach a yellow card and eject the spectator everybody gets it right away. I don’t like ejecting a parent because it is very embarrassing for the player but if I need to do it I will not hesitate. If you continue to allow it then the crowd chimes in because they think the heckler knows what he’s doing and it becomes an angry mob and you can lose control of the game. Once you eliminate the problem the crowd really gets it and settles down.

I try to be that friendly referee that shows respect to all and I referee for the players, I am there for them and for the game and will not allow a bully to ruin it.


sorry, are you doing this for free? If Yes, God Bless You, You are awesome. If No, You are not there for the players or for anyone else. (as it should be). You have a job to do, so just do it well.


Let me translate for the intellectually challenged-Yes I am there to do a job and I do get paid for it even though I don’t do it for the money because they don’t pay me enough to deal with rude people like you. What are you doing for the game?

Here’s why I do it for the players. As a former player and Coach I am there to do a job yes, but I am there for the players and the game because my job is to keep the players SAFE and call fouls when I see them. So I am there for the players to call a FAIR game and to keep it FAIR. I am also there to maintain the integrity of the game and to enforce the laws of the game. That is why I recertify every year and take a written test, nothing about being a referee is easy because if it was EVERYONE would do it. Not everyone can do it well and I take pride in the fact that I give it my all, have fun doing it and have laughs with the Coaches and players because I am also a human being. But my mantra is that I AM there for the players because I am NOT there for rude unsporting spectators and rude Coaches. Don’t tell me why I am there, I know my purpose because without the players there is no game so I try to blend in and do my job well so that everyone else has fun watching and playing and if I do that well nobody notices me and they are focused on the players. Do you understand MR. Anonymous? The game is ALL ABOUT THE PLAYERS!


Oh Cry me a river mr. high and mighty mr. Martyr Man....would you like some cheese with that Whine? Lets call a spade a spade...The Game is about Entertainment for the players, specatators and FANS!!!!!!! without the FANS soccer would be a hobby at best....obviously you have very thin skin....just do a good job and quit your b_tching....your whining is making you annoying a step below nails on the chalk board.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/27/19 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Absolutely right, you have to nip it in the bud and not ignore it when it gets bad. Soccer referees don’t need to have rabbit ears but I find that when one spectator is especially troublesome and irresponsibly inappropriate and loud enough for the entire field to hear him then you need to do something.

Once you show the Coach a yellow card and eject the spectator everybody gets it right away. I don’t like ejecting a parent because it is very embarrassing for the player but if I need to do it I will not hesitate. If you continue to allow it then the crowd chimes in because they think the heckler knows what he’s doing and it becomes an angry mob and you can lose control of the game. Once you eliminate the problem the crowd really gets it and settles down.

I try to be that friendly referee that shows respect to all and I referee for the players, I am there for them and for the game and will not allow a bully to ruin it.


sorry, are you doing this for free? If Yes, God Bless You, You are awesome. If No, You are not there for the players or for anyone else. (as it should be). You have a job to do, so just do it well.


Boy you are completely clueless. You must be a parent who vicariously lives through your kid and thinks your kid will get a full scholarship to the school of his choice. Be a part of the solution not the problem... which obviously you are.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/27/19 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Absolutely right, you have to nip it in the bud and not ignore it when it gets bad. Soccer referees don’t need to have rabbit ears but I find that when one spectator is especially troublesome and irresponsibly inappropriate and loud enough for the entire field to hear him then you need to do something.

Once you show the Coach a yellow card and eject the spectator everybody gets it right away. I don’t like ejecting a parent because it is very embarrassing for the player but if I need to do it I will not hesitate. If you continue to allow it then the crowd chimes in because they think the heckler knows what he’s doing and it becomes an angry mob and you can lose control of the game. Once you eliminate the problem the crowd really gets it and settles down.

I try to be that friendly referee that shows respect to all and I referee for the players, I am there for them and for the game and will not allow a bully to ruin it.


Legit question - how much is tolerable? You'll always get "hey ref that's a terrible call". Where do you draw the line? (cursing, getting personal, etc)


Always a good question. Each ref has their own tolerance level so I can't speak for anyone else. I use the 3 P's when deciding when enough is enough. It's the same philosophy that should be used whether or not to issue a YC for dissent.

1. Personal - Is what the person is saying personal towards me?

2. Provacative - Is what they are saying trying to provoke a response

3. Public - Is what they are saying public? In other words... is it loud enough for everyone within earshot to hear it?

If all 3 apply then its dealt with.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/27/19 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Absolutely right, you have to nip it in the bud and not ignore it when it gets bad. Soccer referees don’t need to have rabbit ears but I find that when one spectator is especially troublesome and irresponsibly inappropriate and loud enough for the entire field to hear him then you need to do something.

Once you show the Coach a yellow card and eject the spectator everybody gets it right away. I don’t like ejecting a parent because it is very embarrassing for the player but if I need to do it I will not hesitate. If you continue to allow it then the crowd chimes in because they think the heckler knows what he’s doing and it becomes an angry mob and you can lose control of the game. Once you eliminate the problem the crowd really gets it and settles down.

I try to be that friendly referee that shows respect to all and I referee for the players, I am there for them and for the game and will not allow a bully to ruin it.


Legit question - how much is tolerable? You'll always get "hey ref that's a terrible call". Where do you draw the line? (cursing, getting personal, etc)


Always a good question. Each ref has their own tolerance level so I can't speak for anyone else. I use the 3 P's when deciding when enough is enough. It's the same philosophy that should be used whether or not to issue a YC for dissent.

1. Personal - Is what the person is saying personal towards me?

2. Provacative - Is what they are saying trying to provoke a response

3. Public - Is what they are saying public? In other words... is it loud enough for everyone within earshot to hear it?

If all 3 apply then its dealt with.




Have you considered earplugs?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/27/19 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Absolutely right, you have to nip it in the bud and not ignore it when it gets bad. Soccer referees don’t need to have rabbit ears but I find that when one spectator is especially troublesome and irresponsibly inappropriate and loud enough for the entire field to hear him then you need to do something.

Once you show the Coach a yellow card and eject the spectator everybody gets it right away. I don’t like ejecting a parent because it is very embarrassing for the player but if I need to do it I will not hesitate. If you continue to allow it then the crowd chimes in because they think the heckler knows what he’s doing and it becomes an angry mob and you can lose control of the game. Once you eliminate the problem the crowd really gets it and settles down.

I try to be that friendly referee that shows respect to all and I referee for the players, I am there for them and for the game and will not allow a bully to ruin it.


sorry, are you doing this for free? If Yes, God Bless You, You are awesome. If No, You are not there for the players or for anyone else. (as it should be). You have a job to do, so just do it well.


Let me translate for the intellectually challenged-Yes I am there to do a job and I do get paid for it even though I don’t do it for the money because they don’t pay me enough to deal with rude people like you. What are you doing for the game?

Here’s why I do it for the players. As a former player and Coach I am there to do a job yes, but I am there for the players and the game because my job is to keep the players SAFE and call fouls when I see them. So I am there for the players to call a FAIR game and to keep it FAIR. I am also there to maintain the integrity of the game and to enforce the laws of the game. That is why I recertify every year and take a written test, nothing about being a referee is easy because if it was EVERYONE would do it. Not everyone can do it well and I take pride in the fact that I give it my all, have fun doing it and have laughs with the Coaches and players because I am also a human being. But my mantra is that I AM there for the players because I am NOT there for rude unsporting spectators and rude Coaches. Don’t tell me why I am there, I know my purpose because without the players there is no game so I try to blend in and do my job well so that everyone else has fun watching and playing and if I do that well nobody notices me and they are focused on the players. Do you understand MR. Anonymous? The game is ALL ABOUT THE PLAYERS!


Oh Cry me a river mr. high and mighty mr. Martyr Man....would you like some cheese with that Whine? Lets call a spade a spade...The Game is about Entertainment for the players, specatators and FANS!!!!!!! without the FANS soccer would be a hobby at best....obviously you have very thin skin....just do a good job and quit your b_tching....your whining is making you annoying a step below nails on the chalk board.


No. Let’s call a wanker a wanker. You clueless twat. There’s one of you at every game. What will you do when your little ones mature and leave you behind. Go away please. The game would be better without you.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/28/19 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Absolutely right, you have to nip it in the bud and not ignore it when it gets bad. Soccer referees don’t need to have rabbit ears but I find that when one spectator is especially troublesome and irresponsibly inappropriate and loud enough for the entire field to hear him then you need to do something.

Once you show the Coach a yellow card and eject the spectator everybody gets it right away. I don’t like ejecting a parent because it is very embarrassing for the player but if I need to do it I will not hesitate. If you continue to allow it then the crowd chimes in because they think the heckler knows what he’s doing and it becomes an angry mob and you can lose control of the game. Once you eliminate the problem the crowd really gets it and settles down.

I try to be that friendly referee that shows respect to all and I referee for the players, I am there for them and for the game and will not allow a bully to ruin it.


Legit question - how much is tolerable? You'll always get "hey ref that's a terrible call". Where do you draw the line? (cursing, getting personal, etc)


Always a good question. Each ref has their own tolerance level so I can't speak for anyone else. I use the 3 P's when deciding when enough is enough. It's the same philosophy that should be used whether or not to issue a YC for dissent.

1. Personal - Is what the person is saying personal towards me?

2. Provacative - Is what they are saying trying to provoke a response

3. Public - Is what they are saying public? In other words... is it loud enough for everyone within earshot to hear it?

If all 3 apply then its dealt with.




Have you considered earplugs?


And you are the exact reason there is a referee shortage. Think about that the next time you dont have a referee at your game
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/28/19 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Lisra takes no accountability! The clubs should takeover the duty of hiring referees for their respective clubs! Then work with the schools who allow clubs to use fields. This will give more people the responsibility of employing and taking responsibility for their own refs. Right now we have 1 small group of morons assigning refs to align their own pockets. Nick Apostilitis must go!


Having clubs hiring refs would be a disaster. The volunteer administrators are already very overworked and the smaller clubs would struggle mightily in finding refs willing to work their games.


Only certified USSF assignors can assign referees to games so your point about clubs hiring refs is moot.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/28/19 01:25 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Lisra takes no accountability! The clubs should takeover the duty of hiring referees for their respective clubs! Then work with the schools who allow clubs to use fields. This will give more people the responsibility of employing and taking responsibility for their own refs. Right now we have 1 small group of morons assigning refs to align their own pockets. Nick Apostilitis must go!


You can choose different suspects to blame but it does not solve the main issue. On Long Island they have been running classes almost every month of the year, It’s like trying to bail out the ocean. Coaches and clubs take the class. Young people take the class. Former players take the class. Then they try to do it and while it is not for every one the drop out/attrition rate is astounding. No one wants to be abused. No matter how new you are the shortage is acute and not every referee out there can start out being perfect or even good. it takes a few years to fully develop and it takes mistakes to learn and become better just like a player. But there is no patience for that. This region is not alone it is a national problem and many parties are involved trying to find a solution. At times the atmosphere can be toxic and the key demographic (teenagers) do not want to put up with it. When I have young ARs work a game with me I ask them if they want to become Center Referees starting with small sided fields. 99% of them are NOT willing to do it because they do not want to deal with the madness! As mentioned before try recording just the sounds of the game and you will hear evidence of a horrible atmosphere as if every game is the World Cup!


I wonder if in addition to cont. education and experience perhaps make it mandatory for the ARs to wear ear plugs? They are cheap, you can call the game as you see it. and you will not hear any BS from the parents on the sidelines. (Personally if a 15 year old kid told me to stfu I will have such respect for the kid, It takes guts to do this so good for him/her).


Not practical because often the AR's do need to hear the referee. You would be surprised how much verbal and non-verbal communication goes on between refs during a match.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/28/19 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Lisra takes no accountability! The clubs should takeover the duty of hiring referees for their respective clubs! Then work with the schools who allow clubs to use fields. This will give more people the responsibility of employing and taking responsibility for their own refs. Right now we have 1 small group of morons assigning refs to align their own pockets. Nick Apostilitis must go!


You can choose different suspects to blame but it does not solve the main issue. On Long Island they have been running classes almost every month of the year, It’s like trying to bail out the ocean. Coaches and clubs take the class. Young people take the class. Former players take the class. Then they try to do it and while it is not for every one the drop out/attrition rate is astounding. No one wants to be abused. No matter how new you are the shortage is acute and not every referee out there can start out being perfect or even good. it takes a few years to fully develop and it takes mistakes to learn and become better just like a player. But there is no patience for that. This region is not alone it is a national problem and many parties are involved trying to find a solution. At times the atmosphere can be toxic and the key demographic (teenagers) do not want to put up with it. When I have young ARs work a game with me I ask them if they want to become Center Referees starting with small sided fields. 99% of them are NOT willing to do it because they do not want to deal with the madness! As mentioned before try recording just the sounds of the game and you will hear evidence of a horrible atmosphere as if every game is the World Cup!


I wonder if in addition to cont. education and experience perhaps make it mandatory for the ARs to wear ear plugs? They are cheap, you can call the game as you see it. and you will not hear any BS from the parents on the sidelines. (Personally if a 15 year old kid told me to stfu I will have such respect for the kid, It takes guts to do this so good for him/her).


Not practical because often the AR's do need to hear the referee. You would be surprised how much verbal and non-verbal communication goes on between refs during a match.


This is your solution? Wearing earplugs? They need to hear maybe a better idea is for offensive parents to wear muzzles? So when a 15 year old AR got assaulted by a parent a few years ago what would your solution be? For the ARs to wear protective headgear?
In a perfect world a parent that gets ejected or a Coach that gets a red card should be required to take a referee class and they should not be allowed to attend one game for the next season without completing the class. How would you like your 16 year old getting yelled at while they were at their job the entire time they were at work? Do you think it would be easy for them to do their job if they had to work in a hostile environment the entire time? Just like a poster said earlier try what he said and what I have suggested in the past. Audiotape the sounds of the game from the spectators side and play it back for your child that on the ride home. Let them tell you how it feels because this is what they hear the entire game. I have had many players say to me “please make my Dad stop”. Children get it, too bad too many adults don’t. The youth game is supposed to be for the enjoyment of the children, not for the spectators especially when the behavior gets out of line.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/29/19 08:12 PM
Ummm... pay them more? Money money money. MONEY.
Posted By: Larry Miller Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/29/19 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Ummm... pay them more? Money money money. MONEY.



How about we not pay them more and as a result have no refs? Your call. It is anonymous moronic assholes like you that can demonstrate why the referee turnaround is so large. How about you tell us who you are and where you work and we can petition your job to stem all pay increases?
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 11/29/19 10:37 PM
What referees get paid is a tiny amount when compared to all the other costs associated with the huge youth soccer industrial complex of tournaments, trainers, coaches, products, etc. Referees get paid less than the average cost of a pair of soccer cleats.

Truthfully the pay has nothing to do with the unsporting, aberrant and inappropriate behavior exhibited by the narcissistic miscreants that feel entitled to act like barbarians in front of their children. How ironic that they would never allow their own children to behave in that manner and embarrass them!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/02/19 02:25 AM
Since money has been brought up. Think about this.
Parents pay 3k or more (much more with travel expenses)for kids to play soccer.
Officiating falls short of reasonable expectations much of the time.
People get upset when they spend a large sum of money on something and feel like they didn’t receive the “quality product” they expected. I can understand why people get so angry.
I will not get into reff calls because that is a different subject but I will say this. I hate a lazy reff. One that does not want to run. Never in the right position. Calls fouls from 50+ yards. A reff is paid to do a job. If they don’t give a real effort to do that, I would be critical as well. If you are too old, fat, or lazy to do the job, you should be removed from the pool. Parents don’t want to see you half azz it after spending thousands.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/02/19 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Since money has been brought up. Think about this.
Parents pay 3k or more (much more with travel expenses)for kids to play soccer.
Officiating falls short of reasonable expectations much of the time.
People get upset when they spend a large sum of money on something and feel like they didn’t receive the “quality product” they expected. I can understand why people get so angry.
I will not get into reff calls because that is a different subject but I will say this. I hate a lazy reff. One that does not want to run. Never in the right position. Calls fouls from 50+ yards. A reff is paid to do a job. If they don’t give a real effort to do that, I would be critical as well. If you are too old, fat, or lazy to do the job, you should be removed from the pool. Parents don’t want to see you half azz it after spending thousands.


You choosing to spend an insane amount of money on kiddie soccer doesn't magically make the referee's any better. The refs get paid the same amount of money whether they are reffing a team that the parents paid $3,000 to be on or $300 to be on. That's your problem, not theirs.

I'd also like to point out that the vast majority of abuse the referees receive is undeserved as the parents, players and coaches simply don't know the rules. Or it was simply impossible for the referee to make the call from their angle.

Lastly, there are some refs that half ass it out there, but that is largely because the leagues are absolutely begging that anyone with a heartbeat come out and ref as many games as possible because the level of abuse out there has driven the size of the referee pool down to below critical levels. Every week there are games that aren't played because there aren't enough referees to go around. So yes, you are going to get some older immobile refs out there that aren't that great in their first game of the weekend, and are especially immobile after the 4th or 5th game that they are begged to cover.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/02/19 02:27 PM
Maybe LISRA needs to talk to NJ Ref Association. At EDP tournaments, they have had some of the best and most knowledgeable referees. What is NJ doing right? IMO, we have too few good quality referees in our area and far too many average to poor. I do agree that in the Southern NY region the players, coaches and parents need to tone down the nasty rhetoric towards refs. Getting rid of that stupidity may help because who wants the abuse. Some Academies I've talked with forbid parents to talk to players or refs on the field or they will be asked to leave and if their players argue with the ref they are removed from the game by the coach. No easy solution here but effort on everyone's part needs to put forth from LISRA to the clubs.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/02/19 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Since money has been brought up. Think about this.
Parents pay 3k or more (much more with travel expenses)for kids to play soccer.
Officiating falls short of reasonable expectations much of the time.
People get upset when they spend a large sum of money on something and feel like they didn’t receive the “quality product” they expected. I can understand why people get so angry.
I will not get into reff calls because that is a different subject but I will say this. I hate a lazy reff. One that does not want to run. Never in the right position. Calls fouls from 50+ yards. A reff is paid to do a job. If they don’t give a real effort to do that, I would be critical as well. If you are too old, fat, or lazy to do the job, you should be removed from the pool. Parents don’t want to see you half azz it after spending thousands.


You choosing to spend an insane amount of money on kiddie soccer doesn't magically make the referee's any better. The refs get paid the same amount of money whether they are reffing a team that the parents paid $3,000 to be on or $300 to be on. That's your problem, not theirs.

I'd also like to point out that the vast majority of abuse the referees receive is undeserved as the parents, players and coaches simply don't know the rules. Or it was simply impossible for the referee to make the call from their angle.

Lastly, there are some refs that half ass it out there, but that is largely because the leagues are absolutely begging that anyone with a heartbeat come out and ref as many games as possible because the level of abuse out there has driven the size of the referee pool down to below critical levels. Every week there are games that aren't played because there aren't enough referees to go around. So yes, you are going to get some older immobile refs out there that aren't that great in their first game of the weekend, and are especially immobile after the 4th or 5th game that they are begged to cover.



In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/02/19 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Since money has been brought up. Think about this.
Parents pay 3k or more (much more with travel expenses)for kids to play soccer.
Officiating falls short of reasonable expectations much of the time.
People get upset when they spend a large sum of money on something and feel like they didn’t receive the “quality product” they expected. I can understand why people get so angry.
I will not get into reff calls because that is a different subject but I will say this. I hate a lazy reff. One that does not want to run. Never in the right position. Calls fouls from 50+ yards. A reff is paid to do a job. If they don’t give a real effort to do that, I would be critical as well. If you are too old, fat, or lazy to do the job, you should be removed from the pool. Parents don’t want to see you half azz it after spending thousands.


You choosing to spend an insane amount of money on kiddie soccer doesn't magically make the referee's any better. The refs get paid the same amount of money whether they are reffing a team that the parents paid $3,000 to be on or $300 to be on. That's your problem, not theirs.

I'd also like to point out that the vast majority of abuse the referees receive is undeserved as the parents, players and coaches simply don't know the rules. Or it was simply impossible for the referee to make the call from their angle.

Lastly, there are some refs that half ass it out there, but that is largely because the leagues are absolutely begging that anyone with a heartbeat come out and ref as many games as possible because the level of abuse out there has driven the size of the referee pool down to below critical levels. Every week there are games that aren't played because there aren't enough referees to go around. So yes, you are going to get some older immobile refs out there that aren't that great in their first game of the weekend, and are especially immobile after the 4th or 5th game that they are begged to cover.



In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Three or four weeks ago LIJSL had close to 60 games scheduled with no refs available. Be happy you weren't one of them.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/02/19 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Since money has been brought up. Think about this.
Parents pay 3k or more (much more with travel expenses)for kids to play soccer.
Officiating falls short of reasonable expectations much of the time.
People get upset when they spend a large sum of money on something and feel like they didn’t receive the “quality product” they expected. I can understand why people get so angry.
I will not get into reff calls because that is a different subject but I will say this. I hate a lazy reff. One that does not want to run. Never in the right position. Calls fouls from 50+ yards. A reff is paid to do a job. If they don’t give a real effort to do that, I would be critical as well. If you are too old, fat, or lazy to do the job, you should be removed from the pool. Parents don’t want to see you half azz it after spending thousands.


You choosing to spend an insane amount of money on kiddie soccer doesn't magically make the referee's any better. The refs get paid the same amount of money whether they are reffing a team that the parents paid $3,000 to be on or $300 to be on. That's your problem, not theirs.

I'd also like to point out that the vast majority of abuse the referees receive is undeserved as the parents, players and coaches simply don't know the rules. Or it was simply impossible for the referee to make the call from their angle.

Lastly, there are some refs that half ass it out there, but that is largely because the leagues are absolutely begging that anyone with a heartbeat come out and ref as many games as possible because the level of abuse out there has driven the size of the referee pool down to below critical levels. Every week there are games that aren't played because there aren't enough referees to go around. So yes, you are going to get some older immobile refs out there that aren't that great in their first game of the weekend, and are especially immobile after the 4th or 5th game that they are begged to cover.



In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Three or four weeks ago LIJSL had close to 60 games scheduled with no refs available. Be happy you weren't one of them.


A couple of issues to clarify here. If referees are late why do you think they are late? Most are because they are doing multiple games and also have to travel to your game. You should have the referee’s phone number and have the ability to call them. If they don’t answer it could be that they are still working a game. Of course if they see they are running late at half time they should be contacting you during their half time break to let you know that they will be late. It is a two way street regarding these little courtesies we should have for each other. Also if only 2 referees show up of course you only have to pay for 2. Again the 3rd may not be there because his previous game is running late.

I always tell the Coach where my previous game is and what time I expect to finish.I also tell him I have to travel after his game so that we try our best to start on time. Once the first game at a particular field starts late, it only mushrooms from there and causes the rest of the games to be late and potentially affects games elsewhere because of your referee having to travel to another field.
Eastern New York is ultimately responsible for recertifying referees through the USSF. The USSF has just changed the different referee grades and are in the process of instituting the changes and training syllabus.

While LISRA members may be assignors, they are USSF certified assignors and on Long Island they assign at least 1300 games a weekend. You can imagine the logistics nightmare when games are rained out and they have to be made up on the same amount of fields already available.I know we are short referees because we receive many many emails from assignors desperately seeking referees for added games or to cover a sick or injured referees because we also experience injuries.

Now this is only my own opinion but in almost every other part of the world a 3 referee system is only used for ages 15 or older. The fact that some leagues, coaches and parents think that they need 3 referees is just silly because they are using extra referees for U9-U12 that are just not necessary. So they use valuable resources that can be used on other games that really need ARs.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/03/19 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Maybe LISRA needs to talk to NJ Ref Association. At EDP tournaments, they have had some of the best and most knowledgeable referees. What is NJ doing right? IMO, we have too few good quality referees in our area and far too many average to poor. I do agree that in the Southern NY region the players, coaches and parents need to tone down the nasty rhetoric towards refs. Getting rid of that stupidity may help because who wants the abuse. Some Academies I've talked with forbid parents to talk to players or refs on the field or they will be asked to leave and if their players argue with the ref they are removed from the game by the coach. No easy solution here but effort on everyone's part needs to put forth from LISRA to the clubs.


To compare the NJ area and an EDP Tournament with the weekly demands of regular season games on Long Island is not a good comparison. Tournaments are planned a year in advance and this Tournament is supposed to be one of the best run tournaments on the east coast. EDP pays the highest referee fees in the region. Referees from far and wide go to work that tournament so you may not realize that some referees that work it may not all be from New Jersey. To repeat the associations don’t assign referees USSF certified assignors do.
I’m sure the NJ Referee Association has the same issues recruiting referees as does LISRA. This is not a problem associated with any one region but is a national problem caused by normal attrition for many reasons, chief among them the challenging and often hostile environment all sports officials are dealing with all over the country.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/03/19 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Maybe LISRA needs to talk to NJ Ref Association. At EDP tournaments, they have had some of the best and most knowledgeable referees. What is NJ doing right? IMO, we have too few good quality referees in our area and far too many average to poor. I do agree that in the Southern NY region the players, coaches and parents need to tone down the nasty rhetoric towards refs. Getting rid of that stupidity may help because who wants the abuse. Some Academies I've talked with forbid parents to talk to players or refs on the field or they will be asked to leave and if their players argue with the ref they are removed from the game by the coach. No easy solution here but effort on everyone's part needs to put forth from LISRA to the clubs.


To compare the NJ area and an EDP Tournament with the weekly demands of regular season games on Long Island is not a good comparison. Tournaments are planned a year in advance and this Tournament is supposed to be one of the best run tournaments on the east coast. EDP pays the highest referee fees in the region. Referees from far and wide go to work that tournament so you may not realize that some referees that work it may not all be from New Jersey. To repeat the associations don’t assign referees USSF certified assignors do.
I’m sure the NJ Referee Association has the same issues recruiting referees as does LISRA. This is not a problem associated with any one region but is a national problem caused by normal attrition for many reasons, chief among them the challenging and often hostile environment all sports officials are dealing with all over the country.


My sons have played EDP regular league too and the quality of the Referees in NJ is better overall and I've seen many of the same faces at both league games and tournaments. I'm also not saying Jersey doesn't have ref problems either but they seemingly are doing a better job than we are on LI. I'm also well aware that Ref Associations don't assign referees as I've scheduled games working with assignors. Perhaps the NJ Association demands better training that LISRA requires of its personnel. I think we all agree it is indeed a multi-pronged problem but something needs to be done. Perhaps the governing leagues (LIJSL, CJSL, NYCSL, EDP) in our area and the referees associations need to come together to figure out how to improve things on the sidelines as well as product on the field. Otherwise we will keep making up the same old excuses why things are so bad and don't improve.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/03/19 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Since money has been brought up. Think about this.
Parents pay 3k or more (much more with travel expenses)for kids to play soccer.
Officiating falls short of reasonable expectations much of the time.
People get upset when they spend a large sum of money on something and feel like they didn’t receive the “quality product” they expected. I can understand why people get so angry.
I will not get into reff calls because that is a different subject but I will say this. I hate a lazy reff. One that does not want to run. Never in the right position. Calls fouls from 50+ yards. A reff is paid to do a job. If they don’t give a real effort to do that, I would be critical as well. If you are too old, fat, or lazy to do the job, you should be removed from the pool. Parents don’t want to see you half azz it after spending thousands.


You choosing to spend an insane amount of money on kiddie soccer doesn't magically make the referee's any better. The refs get paid the same amount of money whether they are reffing a team that the parents paid $3,000 to be on or $300 to be on. That's your problem, not theirs.

I'd also like to point out that the vast majority of abuse the referees receive is undeserved as the parents, players and coaches simply don't know the rules. Or it was simply impossible for the referee to make the call from their angle.

Lastly, there are some refs that half ass it out there, but that is largely because the leagues are absolutely begging that anyone with a heartbeat come out and ref as many games as possible because the level of abuse out there has driven the size of the referee pool down to below critical levels. Every week there are games that aren't played because there aren't enough referees to go around. So yes, you are going to get some older immobile refs out there that aren't that great in their first game of the weekend, and are especially immobile after the 4th or 5th game that they are begged to cover.



In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Three or four weeks ago LIJSL had close to 60 games scheduled with no refs available. Be happy you weren't one of them.


what does this even mean? Does this compare to how many games were scheduled that had referees? my instincts are telling me 60 games with no referees is about 1% or 2% (pretty good in my book as i relate back to my statistics class in college and the standard deviation) nothing is ever 100%.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/03/19 03:17 PM
You are spot on. I am a "seasoned" referee. 15 years and State Emeritus level. Now I am expected to go and do a 4 hour class plus tests background checks ect. I'm contemplating leaving too. With all the other BS we have to put up with it's just not worth it.
Many referees wont bother.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/03/19 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous


Three or four weeks ago LIJSL had close to 60 games scheduled with no refs available. Be happy you weren't one of them.


what does this even mean? Does this compare to how many games were scheduled that had referees? my instincts are telling me 60 games with no referees is about 1% or 2% (pretty good in my book as i relate back to my statistics class in college and the standard deviation) nothing is ever 100%.


60 games not getting assigned refs in a single weekend is terrible. It never used to be like that. It used to be games only didn't have refs because earlier games ran late or the ref got injured during the day. A significant number of games not getting refs assigned to them in the first place is a fairly recent development and is only getting worse.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/03/19 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You are spot on. I am a "seasoned" referee. 15 years and State Emeritus level. Now I am expected to go and do a 4 hour class plus tests background checks ect. I'm contemplating leaving too. With all the other BS we have to put up with it's just not worth it.
Many referees wont bother.


I looked into this for my son. A new AR is looking at not breaking even until about 10 games in with all the various fees involved. Not worth it.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/03/19 06:24 PM
You are spot on. I am a "seasoned" referee. 15 years and State Emeritus level. Now I am expected to go and do a 4 hour class plus tests background checks ect. I'm contemplating leaving too. With all the other BS we have to put up with it's just not worth it. Many referees wont bother.

Wow, lets break this down.

1. Agreed that refs have to put up with too much BS. This comes down to individual clubs, leagues, etc making sure their parents, coaches and players either exhibit proper behavior or you'll get the boot. Zero tolerance needs to be enforced. I do it with my teams and my club does as well. We have suspended coaches and parents for referee abuse. I support referees on this front.

2. As to your push back on the background check and players safety courses, well every person involved with kids needs to do it, those who get paid and those who are volunteers (coaches, club board members, managers, trainers. It is for the health and well being of the players. How could that possibly be an affront to you?.

3. So you're a 15 year ref with State Emeritus level. Wow, that and 50 cents won't get you on the subway. Why would continuing education to always hone your craft and become better be a bad thing? There are changes to the laws of the game and with the most recent law changes even seasoned refs have gotten it wrong.

To sum this up from my point of view, if you decided to hang up the whistle because the abuse has just become too much and no one is trying on the other end to make things better, I would understand that. But if you are so arrogant that having to do items #'s 2 & 3 above would make you hang the whistle up, then maybe you should. Background checks, child player safety and knowledge should never cause you to stop your craft unless you are as arrogant as your post came across
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/03/19 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You are spot on. I am a "seasoned" referee. 15 years and State Emeritus level. Now I am expected to go and do a 4 hour class plus tests background checks ect. I'm contemplating leaving too. With all the other BS we have to put up with it's just not worth it.
Many referees wont bother.


I looked into this for my son. A new AR is looking at not breaking even until about 10 games in with all the various fees involved. Not worth it.



Maybe but don't write it off so quickly. It beats working in the supermarket. lf your son is keen and loves the game and has enough self confidence, he'll pick those ten games up quickly and will soon be able to do several back to back, up to ten in a weekend, if you don't mind dropping him off. Maybe build up to that over a couple of seasons. My own son is seventeen and has been doing it since he turned 13, makes a truckload of money. If you are good, after a while they'll start your son as a CR with the little kids, as it frees up the more experienced refs. Six little games, back to back in one day is $240 plus and you can easily make $500 a weekend if you are fit enough - beats the local King Cullen by a mile. As he gets older, its a very handy way to put beer money aside for college...once he gets better at it, it's easy. A confident teen ref gets more respect from players, coaches and parents alike and once he has some games under his belt, it's the best way out there to make a few dollars. Except when it's raining. Also, reffing's brilliant practice for handling conflict at an early age. Takes balls but if he has it, there's nothing better.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/03/19 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You are spot on. I am a "seasoned" referee. 15 years and State Emeritus level. Now I am expected to go and do a 4 hour class plus tests background checks ect. I'm contemplating leaving too. With all the other BS we have to put up with it's just not worth it.
Many referees wont bother.



Here's a great take on it all from a Scottish ex-player, who still coaches and also refs in Germany; the problem is world-wide. There's some salty language but it's worth a read, especially for those out there who think it good sport to yell at the ref. https://refereetales.blogspot.com/2019/11/why-amateur-refs-are-quitting-in-huge.html
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/03/19 11:22 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You are spot on. I am a "seasoned" referee. 15 years and State Emeritus level. Now I am expected to go and do a 4 hour class plus tests background checks ect. I'm contemplating leaving too. With all the other BS we have to put up with it's just not worth it.
Many referees wont bother.


I looked into this for my son. A new AR is looking at not breaking even until about 10 games in with all the various fees involved. Not worth it.



Maybe but don't write it off so quickly. It beats working in the supermarket. lf your son is keen and loves the game and has enough self confidence, he'll pick those ten games up quickly and will soon be able to do several back to back, up to ten in a weekend, if you don't mind dropping him off. Maybe build up to that over a couple of seasons. My own son is seventeen and has been doing it since he turned 13, makes a truckload of money. If you are good, after a while they'll start your son as a CR with the little kids, as it frees up the more experienced refs. Six little games, back to back in one day is $240 plus and you can easily make $500 a weekend if you are fit enough - beats the local King Cullen by a mile. As he gets older, its a very handy way to put beer money aside for college...once he gets better at it, it's easy. A confident teen ref gets more respect from players, coaches and parents alike and once he has some games under his belt, it's the best way out there to make a few dollars. Except when it's raining. Also, reffing's brilliant practice for handling conflict at an early age. Takes balls but if he has it, there's nothing better.

Not that money should be the only motivator but this poster is spot on and I bet he is so proud of his son to be able to have the “presence” to at this point be a veteran referee and probably quite a good one that is sticking it out. I love working with ARs and working a line as an AR for a young referee that is doing a great job that is not always easy.
What people may not know is that there are many talented young referees that have the potential to become professional referees just like a few of the players. We need these young people to stay in the ranks, they are the future.

I will say that one of my daughters was a Grade 8 referee before she went away to college and during a tournament on Long Island she worked 5 small sided games that were probably 50 minute games. So after 5 hours she was cut a check right at that complex of fields for $158. You do the math. No 16 years old can make that kind of money. I was working large sided fields and was done after 3 games. But I know it sounds corny and hard for cynics to understand but most referees that I know LOVE working games and it’s not just for the money.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/04/19 02:44 PM
I cant tell you how many games I show up to and ask ask the old timer reffing still hanging in there? and year after year they say one more year... What this new required class and training will do is finally force those oldtimers out and those are the ones that we need to keep. The newbies keep cycling in and out but the veterans have been there consistently for the long haul.

Long Island needs thousands of refs each weekend. This top down mandate is really going to hurt
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/05/19 07:13 PM
Well many people really underestimate the “old timer”. One silly class will not stop that guy from continuing to be a referee. A lot of these guys do not look their age and can run circles around guys 20 years younger!

Many of these great referees remind me of a crafty veteran baseball pitcher. They may have lost their speed but they have become so intelligent at what they do that they make up for being slower by being able to anticipate so effortlessly. They are still where they need to be and rarely miss a play or a call because of excellent positioning. Their experience trumps everything.
So very many referees continue because of their love of the game. Yes many of them are retired and on fixed incomes and supplement their fixed incomes by reffing games, But they mostly do it for the love of the game. It may sound corny but I have worked with many of these guys and it is a delight because I am in awe of them.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/05/19 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Well many people really underestimate the “old timer”. One silly class will not stop that guy from continuing to be a referee. A lot of these guys do not look their age and can run circles around guys 20 years younger!

Many of these great referees remind me of a crafty veteran baseball pitcher. They may have lost their speed but they have become so intelligent at what they do that they make up for being slower by being able to anticipate so effortlessly. They are still where they need to be and rarely miss a play or a call because of excellent positioning. Their experience trumps everything.
So very many referees continue because of their love of the game. Yes many of them are retired and on fixed incomes and supplement their fixed incomes by reffing games, But they mostly do it for the love of the game. It may sound corny but I have worked with many of these guys and it is a delight because I am in awe of them.


If you do it for free....than you can say you "Love it" Lets not whore this word out like a cheap punchline. The word "LOVE" is sacred.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/05/19 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Well many people really underestimate the “old timer”. One silly class will not stop that guy from continuing to be a referee. A lot of these guys do not look their age and can run circles around guys 20 years younger!

Many of these great referees remind me of a crafty veteran baseball pitcher. They may have lost their speed but they have become so intelligent at what they do that they make up for being slower by being able to anticipate so effortlessly. They are still where they need to be and rarely miss a play or a call because of excellent positioning. Their experience trumps everything.
So very many referees continue because of their love of the game. Yes many of them are retired and on fixed incomes and supplement their fixed incomes by reffing games, But they mostly do it for the love of the game. It may sound corny but I have worked with many of these guys and it is a delight because I am in awe of them.

Originally Posted by LIRef77
Well many people really underestimate the “old timer”. One silly class will not stop that guy from continuing to be a referee. A lot of these guys do not look their age and can run circles around guys 20 years younger!

Many of these great referees remind me of a crafty veteran baseball pitcher. They may have lost their speed but they have become so intelligent at what they do that they make up for being slower by being able to anticipate so effortlessly. They are still where they need to be and rarely miss a play or a call because of excellent positioning. Their experience trumps everything.
So very many referees continue because of their love of the game. Yes many of them are retired and on fixed incomes and supplement their fixed incomes by reffing games, But they mostly do it for the love of the game. It may sound corny but I have worked with many of these guys and it is a delight because I am in awe of them.


I agree, but instead of making the process easier it becomes more complicated. NY has only had the online test I think 2 years? CT has had it for 15! And CT tells you which questions you get wrong which NY doesn't do or if they do they just started last year. Let me watch a webinar in my feety pajamas. Let me take the test, tell me what I got wrong and mail me my patch! Every year I show up and wait on a line like cattle. NY is a joke. There has to be a better way
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/06/19 01:07 AM
I have to agree the technology needs to be supercharged when it comes to recertifying and training overall, especially if we want to reach a big target “audience’” meaning millennials. That demographic is the biggest group now that they outnumber baby boomers and my boomer generation is aging out and needs a lot of new blood. They are the future.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/06/19 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
I have to agree the technology needs to be supercharged when it comes to recertifying and training overall, especially if we want to reach a big target “audience’” meaning millennials. That demographic is the biggest group now that they outnumber baby boomers and my boomer generation is aging out and needs a lot of new blood. They are the future.


You do now realize the ENY has taken over the certification and recertification process. LISRA has nothing to do with this anymore with the exception of finding a venue. Any complaints should be directed square at ENY now.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/06/19 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
I have to agree the technology needs to be supercharged when it comes to recertifying and training overall, especially if we want to reach a big target “audience’” meaning millennials. That demographic is the biggest group now that they outnumber baby boomers and my boomer generation is aging out and needs a lot of new blood. They are the future.


You do now realize the ENY has taken over the certification and recertification process. LISRA has nothing to do with this anymore with the exception of finding a venue. Any complaints should be directed square at ENY now.


In reading all this BS. I think I have discovered the problem. As we know there are experienced referees that have been doing this a long time (and generally considered "good" and other new (or recently certified referees).

The problem with the new referees is not there inexperience but the manner in which they are being tested. Your basic test to become a referee is a fkg multiple choice test? (they use multiple choice to test monkeys and apes on there level of intelligence, look it up). We can easily design a referees test so that a monkey can pass it and be certified. Can you imagine having curious george showing up with a florescent shirt, whistle and cards? We can most certainly have this (in many cases we have this already).

Multiple Choice tests are only an indication of memory retention and but does not show any proof for testing the Aptitude of the person taking the test. How do we test the Aptitude of the person applying to become a certified Referee?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/06/19 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
I have to agree the technology needs to be supercharged when it comes to recertifying and training overall, especially if we want to reach a big target “audience’” meaning millennials. That demographic is the biggest group now that they outnumber baby boomers and my boomer generation is aging out and needs a lot of new blood. They are the future.


You do now realize the ENY has taken over the certification and recertification process. LISRA has nothing to do with this anymore with the exception of finding a venue. Any complaints should be directed square at ENY now.


In reading all this BS. I think I have discovered the problem. As we know there are experienced referees that have been doing this a long time (and generally considered "good" and other new (or recently certified referees).

The problem with the new referees is not there inexperience but the manner in which they are being tested. Your basic test to become a referee is a fkg multiple choice test? (they use multiple choice to test monkeys and apes on there level of intelligence, look it up). We can easily design a referees test so that a monkey can pass it and be certified. Can you imagine having curious george showing up with a florescent shirt, whistle and cards? We can most certainly have this (in many cases we have this already).

Multiple Choice tests are only an indication of memory retention and but does not show any proof for testing the Aptitude of the person taking the test. How do we test the Aptitude of the person applying to become a certified Referee?


The only way is to get out on the field and actually do it. You can pass a bartending class but that sure as hell doesn't make you a good bartender. You have to apply your craft and work at it... like almost any job.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/06/19 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
I have to agree the technology needs to be supercharged when it comes to recertifying and training overall, especially if we want to reach a big target “audience’” meaning millennials. That demographic is the biggest group now that they outnumber baby boomers and my boomer generation is aging out and needs a lot of new blood. They are the future.


You do now realize the ENY has taken over the certification and recertification process. LISRA has nothing to do with this anymore with the exception of finding a venue. Any complaints should be directed square at ENY now.


In reading all this BS. I think I have discovered the problem. As we know there are experienced referees that have been doing this a long time (and generally considered "good" and other new (or recently certified referees).

The problem with the new referees is not there inexperience but the manner in which they are being tested. Your basic test to become a referee is a fkg multiple choice test? (they use multiple choice to test monkeys and apes on there level of intelligence, look it up). We can easily design a referees test so that a monkey can pass it and be certified. Can you imagine having curious george showing up with a florescent shirt, whistle and cards? We can most certainly have this (in many cases we have this already).

Multiple Choice tests are only an indication of memory retention and but does not show any proof for testing the Aptitude of the person taking the test. How do we test the Aptitude of the person applying to become a certified Referee?


So you want to make it harder for people to pass the referee test while we are in the middle of a referee shortage?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/06/19 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
I have to agree the technology needs to be supercharged when it comes to recertifying and training overall, especially if we want to reach a big target “audience’” meaning millennials. That demographic is the biggest group now that they outnumber baby boomers and my boomer generation is aging out and needs a lot of new blood. They are the future.


You do now realize the ENY has taken over the certification and recertification process. LISRA has nothing to do with this anymore with the exception of finding a venue. Any complaints should be directed square at ENY now.


In reading all this BS. I think I have discovered the problem. As we know there are experienced referees that have been doing this a long time (and generally considered "good" and other new (or recently certified referees).

The problem with the new referees is not there inexperience but the manner in which they are being tested. Your basic test to become a referee is a fkg multiple choice test? (they use multiple choice to test monkeys and apes on there level of intelligence, look it up). We can easily design a referees test so that a monkey can pass it and be certified. Can you imagine having curious george showing up with a florescent shirt, whistle and cards? We can most certainly have this (in many cases we have this already).

Multiple Choice tests are only an indication of memory retention and but does not show any proof for testing the Aptitude of the person taking the test. How do we test the Aptitude of the person applying to become a certified Referee?



You do have a point here and it's worth mentioning the inexperienced refs aren't usually the teens because they also play and know how to see a foul or an offside coming. There are a lot of older, middle aged new refs who pass the written test and get thrown in a bit deeper then they should, after AR'ing only a few times. They haven't a clue from day 1. Unfortunately there are too many games and not enough on the job training (any in fact) for the system to work perfectly and in reality, none it truly matters so much that it's worth getting tied up over, unless you are worried about injuries. It is a contact sport. Depends if you have a girl or a boy, I suppose but at least with girls it all happens in slow motion, so they are easier to ref, even if the parents are insane. 'Stop pu-ushing, is she allowed to push her?' Perhaps there should be an 'Aptitude' test for the players, too. Anything under a certain level should be reffed by the parents, coaches, or self reffed (kids are very fair when they scrimmage) and then there are enough experienced refs to cover the elite games that do qualify. Having a three man system to run a D3 U12 game is beyond ridiculous and it is vanity to the extreme that we all think it matters. This is all rec ball, so none of it is particularly important and the parents should be glad to have a yellow blob out there to give them a focal point for all that angst. I'd say it's an unneeded luxury.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/06/19 10:33 PM
Its the perfect storm-
The next generation wants to pay for everything yet do nothing
Ref abuse is at an all time high
Time and cost of entry for new refs is high and time consuming for young kids
Recertification is torturous, time consuming, antiquated and getting WORSE
Online support is almost zero and that's where the next generation lives

If I can go to college online we should be able to figure this out! You have a better chance of me watching training videos at home then driving out to a "rap session"

As far as ENY taking over for LISRA. I still waited on line for an hour last year out in dix hills. New people same broken process
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/06/19 10:48 PM
Next you will suggest a BA degree
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/08/19 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Its the perfect storm-
The next generation wants to pay for everything yet do nothing
Ref abuse is at an all time high
Time and cost of entry for new refs is high and time consuming for young kids
Recertification is torturous, time consuming, antiquated and getting WORSE
Online support is almost zero and that's where the next generation lives

If I can go to college online we should be able to figure this out! You have a better chance of me watching training videos at home then driving out to a "rap session"

As far as ENY taking over for LISRA. I still waited on line for an hour last year out in dix hills. New people same broken process


You are aware the recertification process is much different than years before. Now you have to go to a 4 hour training class as well as pass the online test and Safesport. So now you'll probably complain that this is too much for you as well. I see you just want someone to mail your badge without doing any of the requirements. You dont get it do you??
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/09/19 11:16 AM
Well folks as usual as it is on many of these boards we get a little off the subject and it specificity and deteriorate in to a pointless discussion that gets us nowhere.

The subject is Referee Shortage-Solutions. While there are exceptions, most posters are discussing who to blame for this problem and maybe what they offer why there is a shortage.

Don’t tell me it’s all the fault of LISRA, ENY, Old Referees, Young Referees, Bad Referees, Lazy Referees and just tell me what positive things we can do to attract more people to refereeing

Let’s discuss some real solutions. How about we come up with comprehensive solutions based on why we got here. I would start with the following-

1-Require clubs to have a certain number of their Coaches become certified Coaches and use a ratio so that every Club large or small complies equally. For example require a 1/5 ratio of referees for every team that club has in all age groups. For example if a Club had 10 total teams, 2 Coaches would have to be certified as Referees and required to work a minimum number of games.

2- Require parents that want to attend their children’s games complete online training regarding the Laws of the Game so that they have a basic understanding of the game and can actually enjoy it more based on the acquired knowledge. Require this after registration so that their online training can be completed by the start of the season.

3- Require all parents to agree to comply with policies that many clubs have put in place but not enforced and if they violate these behavioral protocols they will not be allowed to attend games until they agree to comply with rules already in place.

4- Pay referees more money. There is more and more money being spent on Coaches, Academies, Trainers, Schools, Venues, Equipment, Uniforms, Hotels, Travel Arrangements, Special Camps, Winter Leagues, Tournaments, etc. What referees get paid is a tiny amount of the pie and less than a pair of decent soccer cleats.

5- Do not allow 3 referee games for players younger than U14 unless it is a tournament that has sufficient referees for all games. Using 3 referees for U9-U13 is a joke because at these ages most players are not that fast and a single referee can be able to call offside and use flagpersons from the ranks of the parents. I like working with parents because it gives me an a opportunity to establish a direct rapport with them and I see that as an opportunity to be an “Ambassador” of the game so to speak. Not using a 3 referee system for younger players and small sided fields frees up referees for other games that really need them.

6- Offer elective courses for referees to help them develop techniques for dealing with the challenging environments soccer fields can be today and enhance their knowledge of all the psycho-social issues affecting the behavior at sporting events and competitions.

7-Develop more online instructional/study materials for referees and certify more assessors that can analyze/evaluate referees on an annual basis so that referees are constantly being challenged to improve their knowledge of the Laws of the Game.

8-Have each club develop a youth referee program for players and youth that may be interested in making some money and develop referees in the program so that kids that show an interest can move on to to highest levels of the game as referees.

10-Have the professional leagues like MLS and USL, etc assist with youth referee programs.

Maybe this is just a start?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/09/19 01:45 PM
LIRef, you make some very valid points in your argument. I definitely like the idea of #1, 3, and 5 as a start. Unfortunately with #1 you can't force anyone to become a referee and those that do will most likely never set foot on the field. I know many coaches take the referee class simply to get a grasp on the LOTG but thats all. There's never any follow up with regards to new directives the USSF puts out so that basic knowledge is for the most part useless when you get down to the nitty gritty. Most referees today are simply "weekend warriors". They go out over the weekend and ref some games but take no interest in anything else. Many years ago there used to be advanced referee clinics where ENY brought in some of the best people in the country and it was still poorly attended. Number 3 and 5 I feel are where it needs to start and then once you have that under control work to implement some of the others. Again I don't think there is a defined solution to this but what I do know is that this shortage will only get worse before it gets better.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/09/19 04:32 PM
Want more refs? Charge nothing, or very little, upfront to get a new referee kitted up and through his first registration and clinics.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/09/19 06:07 PM
would love to hear from anyone that sat through the first recertification classes? Helpful? learn anything? did they cover off all the recent LOTG in detail?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/09/19 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Want more refs? Charge nothing, or very little, upfront to get a new referee kitted up and through his first registration and clinics.


HAHAHAHAHA!!! That's funny... and have ENY lose out on $$$. Good luck with that.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/09/19 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Want more refs? Charge nothing, or very little, upfront to get a new referee kitted up and through his first registration and clinics.


HAHAHAHAHA!!! That's funny... and have ENY lose out on $$$. Good luck with that.


Charge the clubs more money to cover the extra cost.
Posted By: Larry Miller Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/09/19 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Want more refs? Charge nothing, or very little, upfront to get a new referee kitted up and through his first registration and clinics.


HAHAHAHAHA!!! That's funny... and have ENY lose out on $$$. Good luck with that.


Charge the clubs more money to cover the extra cost.


Who should charge the clubs, and since there are multiple leagues, academies, for profit, not for profit what entity do you suggest that covers all of these entities, the USSF?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/10/19 12:16 AM
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Want more refs? Charge nothing, or very little, upfront to get a new referee kitted up and through his first registration and clinics.


HAHAHAHAHA!!! That's funny... and have ENY lose out on $$$. Good luck with that.


Charge the clubs more money to cover the extra cost.


Who should charge the clubs, and since there are multiple leagues, academies, for profit, not for profit what entity do you suggest that covers all of these entities, the USSF?


In our case, every team that is entered in a LISRA assigned league should be charged an extra $X amount of money once per season to cover the costs for new referees to LISRA.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/10/19 02:10 PM
Anyone have any feedback on the mandatory class???
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/10/19 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Want more refs? Charge nothing, or very little, upfront to get a new referee kitted up and through his first registration and clinics.


HAHAHAHAHA!!! That's funny... and have ENY lose out on $$$. Good luck with that.


Charge the clubs more money to cover the extra cost.


Who should charge the clubs, and since there are multiple leagues, academies, for profit, not for profit what entity do you suggest that covers all of these entities, the USSF?


In our case, every team that is entered in a LISRA assigned league should be charged an extra $X amount of money once per season to cover the costs for new referees to LISRA.


How many times can I say it? LISRA does NOT assign games! USSF assignors assign games. Why should clubs pay for referee training? They already pay for the referees to work games.

Trainers and Coaches pay for their own training and licensing. Referees can pay for their own training, if someone drops out because they do not want to attend a class then so be it, we don’t need people that want the easy way out.

People seem to forget that when something is FREE it just means someone else is paying for it. I want new referees to have skin in the game and have to want to do it not people that want to do it because it is free! We already lose many referees that pay and take the class and then drop out. Having a “free” class will only attract more people that will indeed drop out. Referees get compensated for doing a job they can afford to pay for their own training.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/10/19 03:15 PM
I partially agree. But since LI is having a problem with getting referees (and later keeping them). I think the free class is a good way to attract possible good referees at the base level. As they cont. with more and more experience and show an aptitude for the job, perhaps they should definitely pay for their own higher training and certification as they progress.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/10/19 04:08 PM

You want to attract new refs? Don't shoot me down or say something mean, just trying to throw stuff at the wall and see if any of it sticks. How about we try and build in a HS community service component? Make it mandatory that all applicants have played club or school ball and you'll have strong candidates - most kids have to do ten hours of service a year - make refereeing a qualified community service and you'll attract a new audience, maybe you keep 20% but it's more than you have right now, especially when the best teen refs disappear off to college just as they start to get good. Keep filling the void with the next season's HS players, so there's always a supply. You are not taking anything away from the soup kitchens, most kids fake their community service anyway. I am sure the guidance counsellors would be happy to have a new suggestion that might enthuse the least likely kids. I'd say refereeing is as valid as so many things they do and if not, maybe they can find a way to give back through reffing...maybe someone can kick this ball along and make it a better idea? As a bonus, it will also make the HS players more invested and aware for their own games, might have an add-on of making them more tolerant of refs and keeping their parents quiet. Help me out here, I think this might have legs?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/10/19 05:31 PM
so you are asking dozens and dozens of people to change because your skin is thin? is it not easier for you to "toughen up" and not let any heckling get to you?

remember the rhyme from elementary school: "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me"
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/10/19 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Want more refs? Charge nothing, or very little, upfront to get a new referee kitted up and through his first registration and clinics.


Charge the clubs more money to cover the extra cost.


Who should charge the clubs, and since there are multiple leagues, academies, for profit, not for profit what entity do you suggest that covers all of these entities, the USSF?


In our case, every team that is entered in a LISRA assigned league should be charged an extra $X amount of money once per season to cover the costs for new referees to LISRA.


How many times can I say it? LISRA does NOT assign games! USSF assignors assign games. Why should clubs pay for referee training? They already pay for the referees to work games.

Trainers and Coaches pay for their own training and licensing. Referees can pay for their own training, if someone drops out because they do not want to attend a class then so be it, we don’t need people that want the easy way out.

People seem to forget that when something is FREE it just means someone else is paying for it. I want new referees to have skin in the game and have to want to do it not people that want to do it because it is free! We already lose many referees that pay and take the class and then drop out. Having a “free” class will only attract more people that will indeed drop out. Referees get compensated for doing a job they can afford to pay for their own training.


By LISRA assigned I meant that LISRA referees are the ones being assigned. And the reason I bring it up as part of LISRA is because the union dues go to them and the payments for the uniforms and the courses had been running through them.

And even if the majority of potential new refs that take advantage of the free stuff I'm suggesting, we would still have more referees than what we have now. And that is the point of this exercise, to figure out how to get more referees into the system.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/10/19 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous

You want to attract new refs? Don't shoot me down or say something mean, just trying to throw stuff at the wall and see if any of it sticks. How about we try and build in a HS community service component? Make it mandatory that all applicants have played club or school ball and you'll have strong candidates - most kids have to do ten hours of service a year - make refereeing a qualified community service and you'll attract a new audience, maybe you keep 20% but it's more than you have right now, especially when the best teen refs disappear off to college just as they start to get good. Keep filling the void with the next season's HS players, so there's always a supply. You are not taking anything away from the soup kitchens, most kids fake their community service anyway. I am sure the guidance counsellors would be happy to have a new suggestion that might enthuse the least likely kids. I'd say refereeing is as valid as so many things they do and if not, maybe they can find a way to give back through reffing...maybe someone can kick this ball along and make it a better idea? As a bonus, it will also make the HS players more invested and aware for their own games, might have an add-on of making them more tolerant of refs and keeping their parents quiet. Help me out here, I think this might have legs?

Great idea, I’m all for getting good referees from players’ ranks!

Again the subsequent post about sticks and stones doesn’t work. If you ask most young players they don’t want to deal with the unsociable behavior at games. Some people never get it they think it’s about thin skin???? Try it first pal then talk about thin skin. Again, for the intellectually challenged, WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION to the problem?

And now as far as the free training and free uniforms for referees this is not a charitable deal.Again free only means someone else pays for something! The money does not come out of thin air. Even if an organization pays for uniforms or classes again their members dues are paying for it because an instructor needs to get paid and a uniform manufacturer needs to get paid. There are referee associations like LISRA that have assisted some young referees that needed financial help but most people that want to become referees can afford it and should see it as an investment that will quickly show a return on investment. Clubs should be focused on helping players with uniforms that cannot afford it because players do not get paid and referees do!! When some one that can afford something is given something for free they place less value on it and appreciate it less. The financial commitment required is NOT the reason we have a shortage of referees. However if you pay them more for games that may attract more talent but at least they are earning the money not getting it for nothing!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/10/19 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous

You want to attract new refs? Don't shoot me down or say something mean, just trying to throw stuff at the wall and see if any of it sticks. How about we try and build in a HS community service component? Make it mandatory that all applicants have played club or school ball and you'll have strong candidates - most kids have to do ten hours of service a year - make refereeing a qualified community service and you'll attract a new audience, maybe you keep 20% but it's more than you have right now, especially when the best teen refs disappear off to college just as they start to get good. Keep filling the void with the next season's HS players, so there's always a supply. You are not taking anything away from the soup kitchens, most kids fake their community service anyway. I am sure the guidance counsellors would be happy to have a new suggestion that might enthuse the least likely kids. I'd say refereeing is as valid as so many things they do and if not, maybe they can find a way to give back through reffing...maybe someone can kick this ball along and make it a better idea? As a bonus, it will also make the HS players more invested and aware for their own games, might have an add-on of making them more tolerant of refs and keeping their parents quiet. Help me out here, I think this might have legs?

Great idea, I’m all for getting good referees from players’ ranks!

Again the subsequent post about sticks and stones doesn’t work. If you ask most young players they don’t want to deal with the unsociable behavior at games. Some people never get it they think it’s about thin skin???? Try it first pal then talk about thin skin. Again, for the intellectually challenged, WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION to the problem?

And now as far as the free training and free uniforms for referees this is not a charitable deal.Again free only means someone else pays for something! The money does not come out of thin air. Even if an organization pays for uniforms or classes again their members dues are paying for it because an instructor needs to get paid and a uniform manufacturer needs to get paid. There are referee associations like LISRA that have assisted some young referees that needed financial help but most people that want to become referees can afford it and should see it as an investment that will quickly show a return on investment. Clubs should be focused on helping players with uniforms that cannot afford it because players do not get paid and referees do!! When some one that can afford something is given something for free they place less value on it and appreciate it less. The financial commitment required is NOT the reason we have a shortage of referees. However if you pay them more for games that may attract more talent but at least they are earning the money not getting it for nothing!


Sounds like you have the solution all figured out...All i'm saying is that all referees should be advised that heckling can and will occur (maybe warranted or unwarranted)...in any event, as professionals you are required to tune out any and all negativity and do the best job you can....in other words having thicker skin can't hurt.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/10/19 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous

You want to attract new refs? Don't shoot me down or say something mean, just trying to throw stuff at the wall and see if any of it sticks. How about we try and build in a HS community service component? Make it mandatory that all applicants have played club or school ball and you'll have strong candidates - most kids have to do ten hours of service a year - make refereeing a qualified community service and you'll attract a new audience, maybe you keep 20% but it's more than you have right now, especially when the best teen refs disappear off to college just as they start to get good. Keep filling the void with the next season's HS players, so there's always a supply. You are not taking anything away from the soup kitchens, most kids fake their community service anyway. I am sure the guidance counsellors would be happy to have a new suggestion that might enthuse the least likely kids. I'd say refereeing is as valid as so many things they do and if not, maybe they can find a way to give back through reffing...maybe someone can kick this ball along and make it a better idea? As a bonus, it will also make the HS players more invested and aware for their own games, might have an add-on of making them more tolerant of refs and keeping their parents quiet. Help me out here, I think this might have legs?

Great idea, I’m all for getting good referees from players’ ranks!

Again the subsequent post about sticks and stones doesn’t work. If you ask most young players they don’t want to deal with the unsociable behavior at games. Some people never get it they think it’s about thin skin???? Try it first pal then talk about thin skin. Again, for the intellectually challenged, WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION to the problem?

And now as far as the free training and free uniforms for referees this is not a charitable deal.Again free only means someone else pays for something! The money does not come out of thin air. Even if an organization pays for uniforms or classes again their members dues are paying for it because an instructor needs to get paid and a uniform manufacturer needs to get paid. There are referee associations like LISRA that have assisted some young referees that needed financial help but most people that want to become referees can afford it and should see it as an investment that will quickly show a return on investment. Clubs should be focused on helping players with uniforms that cannot afford it because players do not get paid and referees do!! When some one that can afford something is given something for free they place less value on it and appreciate it less. The financial commitment required is NOT the reason we have a shortage of referees. However if you pay them more for games that may attract more talent but at least they are earning the money not getting it for nothing!


In the end, the players are paying for everything. And that is how it should be. The point is to lower the hurdles for new refs to come into the system, and lowering or eliminating upfront costs for new referees will accomplish that.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/11/19 03:07 AM
You really don’t get it, please postulate for us how and why making it free to become a referee will increase the number of referees that we already train and cannot hold on to.

I can argue this, if the ones that pay for the training every year drop out before they even make the modest cost they have incurred back how in the world will people that pay nothing want to stick with it when it gets challenging or they figure out that it’s not for them?

As for the poster that continues to say that referees have thin skin, it has gone way beyond that including assaults. This is not about thin skinned people this is about trying to eliminate a negative environment that is not mentally healthy for the CHILDREN to see or hear. This is about children having fun not having them watch grown people argue and fight with each other and threaten people.

Us referees have all been told to do our best to ignore negative comments from fans. We’ve been trained in how to handle people don’t patronize and trivialize this atmosphere as if it is the Referees fault for being too sensitive. So again, any constructive solutions? Let’s assume that thin skin is a good trait and so is being able to run right? Next!
Posted By: Larry Miller Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/11/19 04:00 AM
LIRef77, if you read through a myriad of threads one thing seems to always come up and the word FREE. Apparently, it is the postion of many that youth soccer should be free, and it is. It's free if you take you kid and some of his friends to any grass field and let them play.

What is surprising to me is how too many feel that trainers, clubs, referees, etc for youth soccer should be free.

I think you put it well in a previous post of yours you wisely stated that if it free someone had to pay for it. I wonder if these folks calling for free this and free that would work at their jobs fo free?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/11/19 04:13 AM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
You really don’t get it, please postulate for us how and why making it free to become a referee will increase the number of referees that we already train and cannot hold on to.

I can argue this, if the ones that pay for the training every year drop out before they even make the modest cost they have incurred back how in the world will people that pay nothing want to stick with it when it gets challenging or they figure out that it’s not for them?

As for the poster that continues to say that referees have thin skin, it has gone way beyond that including assaults. This is not about thin skinned people this is about trying to eliminate a negative environment that is not mentally healthy for the CHILDREN to see or hear. This is about children having fun not having them watch grown people argue and fight with each other and threaten people.

Us referees have all been told to do our best to ignore negative comments from fans. We’ve been trained in how to handle people don’t patronize and trivialize this atmosphere as if it is the Referees fault for being too sensitive. So again, any constructive solutions? Let’s assume that thin skin is a good trait and so is being able to run right? Next!


It's simple math. Make it cheaper for new refs to get up and running and you will have more refs. Even if 90% of the people who get involved due to the lower cost drop out, that's still more refs in the system from the 10% that stuck around.

As for it being "free", the explanation given was to charge it to the clubs (which is really charging the parents of the kids) which is fine, because they are the ones that need refs to be at their kids games.
Posted By: Larry Miller Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/11/19 04:19 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
You really don’t get it, please postulate for us how and why making it free to become a referee will increase the number of referees that we already train and cannot hold on to.

I can argue this, if the ones that pay for the training every year drop out before they even make the modest cost they have incurred back how in the world will people that pay nothing want to stick with it when it gets challenging or they figure out that it’s not for them?

As for the poster that continues to say that referees have thin skin, it has gone way beyond that including assaults. This is not about thin skinned people this is about trying to eliminate a negative environment that is not mentally healthy for the CHILDREN to see or hear. This is about children having fun not having them watch grown people argue and fight with each other and threaten people.

Us referees have all been told to do our best to ignore negative comments from fans. We’ve been trained in how to handle people don’t patronize and trivialize this atmosphere as if it is the Referees fault for being too sensitive. So again, any constructive solutions? Let’s assume that thin skin is a good trait and so is being able to run right? Next!


It's simple math. Make it cheaper for new refs to get up and running and you will have more refs. Even if 90% of the people who get involved due to the lower cost drop out, that's still more refs in the system from the 10% that stuck around.

As for it being "free", the explanation given was to charge it to the clubs (which is really charging the parents of the kids) which is fine, because they are the ones that need refs to be at their kids games.


Aren't the parents and kids already paying for the refs and everything else youth soccer? Only the LIJSL has major advertising support and the parents paying into the LIJSL via their club boards should ask, "what does the LIJSL do with all that sponsorship money, and the money the LIJSL makes from their convention?" Inquiring minds should want to know.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/11/19 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
LIRef77, if you read through a myriad of threads one thing seems to always come up and the word FREE. Apparently, it is the postion of many that youth soccer should be free, and it is. It's free if you take you kid and some of his friends to any grass field and let them play.

What is surprising to me is how too many feel that trainers, clubs, referees, etc for youth soccer should be free.

I think you put it well in a previous post of yours you wisely stated that if it free someone had to pay for it. I wonder if these folks calling for free this and free that would work at their jobs fo free?


Excellent point Larry! How many would work for free?The answer is Zero.

To the poster that wrote that even if you only get 10% to stick and 90% drop out it would still be a positive result? Please show me any organization that can waste 90% of their resources to get a 10% result? Maybe a for profit organization can afford to do this because the profit margin is so great that it makes up for the fact that you are only capturing 10% of the market.
You are talking about subsidizing the training of 90 out of 100 people that will not stick it out? It’s not about increasing the volume of participants it’s about getting the RIGHT candidates and making it free makes no sense when these people will be getting PAID for the job and training is required for the job.
If you want things to change you still have to pay instructors, that cost money, people do not work for free, why should an instructor work for free and teach someone that will turn around and make money?

I just paid $70 to take my recertification test for 2020, that is a good investment and the cost of me being a referee.As pointed out parents already pay my game fees why would I make them pay for my training and pay for their child’s costs that keep spiraling higher every year? There is no free lunch.

Free means that someone else has paid for something and decided to give it away, that cost real money and comes under the category of charity. We live in a country that has the most charitable citizens on earth. Put your ability to want to be generous with SOMEONE ELSE’S money and donate to a worthy cause. Referees that get paid do not need charity.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/11/19 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
LIRef77, if you read through a myriad of threads one thing seems to always come up and the word FREE. Apparently, it is the postion of many that youth soccer should be free, and it is. It's free if you take you kid and some of his friends to any grass field and let them play.

What is surprising to me is how too many feel that trainers, clubs, referees, etc for youth soccer should be free.

I think you put it well in a previous post of yours you wisely stated that if it free someone had to pay for it. I wonder if these folks calling for free this and free that would work at their jobs fo free?


Excellent point Larry! How many would work for free?The answer is Zero.

To the poster that wrote that even if you only get 10% to stick and 90% drop out it would still be a positive result? Please show me any organization that can waste 90% of their resources to get a 10% result? Maybe a for profit organization can afford to do this because the profit margin is so great that it makes up for the fact that you are only capturing 10% of the market.
You are talking about subsidizing the training of 90 out of 100 people that will not stick it out? It’s not about increasing the volume of participants it’s about getting the RIGHT candidates and making it free makes no sense when these people will be getting PAID for the job and training is required for the job.
If you want things to change you still have to pay instructors, that cost money, people do not work for free, why should an instructor work for free and teach someone that will turn around and make money?

I just paid $70 to take my recertification test for 2020, that is a good investment and the cost of me being a referee.As pointed out parents already pay my game fees why would I make them pay for my training and pay for their child’s costs that keep spiraling higher every year? There is no free lunch.

Free means that someone else has paid for something and decided to give it away, that cost real money and comes under the category of charity. We live in a country that has the most charitable citizens on earth. Put your ability to want to be generous with SOMEONE ELSE’S money and donate to a worthy cause. Referees that get paid do not need charity.



You do get all huffy, way too often don't you and then charge around on your high horse, LI Ref. You always seem to turn hostile in the end. Shame. I worry that you might ref that way but hopefully from what you say otherwise, perhaps not. I am guessing you also do not have an MBA, or Economics degree as you have a simplistic view of 'free' translating to a direct monetary cost for a third party. You started this thread and asked for ideas, yet as usual, even when people are trying to help, you bite the hand that feeds and alienate your supporters. Depends if you are looking for young refs or not but the attrition rate there is almost 100% for at least the four years they are in college, so the trick is to increase the size of the pool and increase the flow at the bottom, as 18 year olds move away but the ref community does little or nothing to try and bring in new, young people. The teens out there are not begging to join you but you are the one bemoaning the dwindling base, so the onus is on ENY, LISRA, Nick and Nancy, or whoever feels they are short of refs to do something about it and attract new talent - your problem, not that of the people you don't have, as stated in OP. You'd be surprised what young people will do for no remuneration if it can help their college resume, btw.

I'm done bothering with this thread, no need to reply. Maybe I'll see you tomorrow night. Merry Christmas.






Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/11/19 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
LIRef77, if you read through a myriad of threads one thing seems to always come up and the word FREE. Apparently, it is the postion of many that youth soccer should be free, and it is. It's free if you take you kid and some of his friends to any grass field and let them play.

What is surprising to me is how too many feel that trainers, clubs, referees, etc for youth soccer should be free.

I think you put it well in a previous post of yours you wisely stated that if it free someone had to pay for it. I wonder if these folks calling for free this and free that would work at their jobs fo free?


Excellent point Larry! How many would work for free?The answer is Zero.

To the poster that wrote that even if you only get 10% to stick and 90% drop out it would still be a positive result? Please show me any organization that can waste 90% of their resources to get a 10% result? Maybe a for profit organization can afford to do this because the profit margin is so great that it makes up for the fact that you are only capturing 10% of the market.
You are talking about subsidizing the training of 90 out of 100 people that will not stick it out? It’s not about increasing the volume of participants it’s about getting the RIGHT candidates and making it free makes no sense when these people will be getting PAID for the job and training is required for the job.
If you want things to change you still have to pay instructors, that cost money, people do not work for free, why should an instructor work for free and teach someone that will turn around and make money?

I just paid $70 to take my recertification test for 2020, that is a good investment and the cost of me being a referee.As pointed out parents already pay my game fees why would I make them pay for my training and pay for their child’s costs that keep spiraling higher every year? There is no free lunch.

Free means that someone else has paid for something and decided to give it away, that cost real money and comes under the category of charity. We live in a country that has the most charitable citizens on earth. Put your ability to want to be generous with SOMEONE ELSE’S money and donate to a worthy cause. Referees that get paid do not need charity.





I never said that anyone should work for free. I said that new referees should have their initial costs paid for by the clubs (meaning the parents paying into the clubs) as a recruiting tool to get more people to become referees. I'm not sure where anyone got the idea that I expected instructors or others to work for free when I clearly stated that the costs should be foisted upon the clubs.

It only cost you $70 to take your re-certification test, but a brand new potential ref is looking at somewhere between $300 and $400 between the courses, registration, union fees and equipment as an initial investment and that is a daunting figure for many people who are looking at this as a part-time side gig to make a few extra bucks. If you have a better idea on how to get more refs into the system I'd be glad to hear it.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/12/19 03:26 AM
Oh no I do get it, you don’t get it maybe if you read the whole thread you would know. My daughter was a referee and worked 5 games straight at a tournament all small sided games and she got a check for $158 right then and there. So you lay out that money and you work as an AR for a Spring or Fall Season and trust me a young person that can work 10 games a weekend can do very well indeed. 10 Weekend games in U14 games at $30/game is $300. Do it again next weekend and you just doubled your money. $600! Boom! Then you have 8 weekends left in the season. No 14 year old can make that money in any job! This example is U14 games, you can even make more as you gain more experience and work older higher level games. Tournament money is additional.

They will definitely make the money back quickly the question is will they stick with it? When I say that instructors don’t teach for free all I am doing is showing you that there is a cost to the training and a facility to have to use why a club would pay for that in addition to registration fees, referee fees, tournament fees, trainer fees, indoor winter facility fees, fees on fees if you feel it is fair to just charge the parents and as long as it is a transparent charge that parents are aware of then fine. But I just don’t see people paying all these fees and clubs asking people to pay more fees so that the referee that they will be paying to work their game can have a free class. When you really look at the real numbers it is not fair or a financially sound argument to make to the people that would end up paying for it.

In actuality the fees for the class is a tiny amount of money as you have to buy shoes, socks, uniform items, cold gear, food, drinks, etc.I say raise the pay make it very attractive to become a referee especially a young referee and that will indeed attract more people. There is still no guarantee they will stick with it.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/12/19 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Oh no I do get it, you don’t get it maybe if you read the whole thread you would know. My daughter was a referee and worked 5 games straight at a tournament all small sided games and she got a check for $158 right then and there. So you lay out that money and you work as an AR for a Spring or Fall Season and trust me a young person that can work 10 games a weekend can do very well indeed. 10 Weekend games in U14 games at $30/game is $300. Do it again next weekend and you just doubled your money. $600! Boom! Then you have 8 weekends left in the season. No 14 year old can make that money in any job! This example is U14 games, you can even make more as you gain more experience and work older higher level games. Tournament money is additional.

They will definitely make the money back quickly the question is will they stick with it? When I say that instructors don’t teach for free all I am doing is showing you that there is a cost to the training and a facility to have to use why a club would pay for that in addition to registration fees, referee fees, tournament fees, trainer fees, indoor winter facility fees, fees on fees if you feel it is fair to just charge the parents and as long as it is a transparent charge that parents are aware of then fine. But I just don’t see people paying all these fees and clubs asking people to pay more fees so that the referee that they will be paying to work their game can have a free class. When you really look at the real numbers it is not fair or a financially sound argument to make to the people that would end up paying for it.

In actuality the fees for the class is a tiny amount of money as you have to buy shoes, socks, uniform items, cold gear, food, drinks, etc.I say raise the pay make it very attractive to become a referee especially a young referee and that will indeed attract more people. There is still no guarantee they will stick with it.


What do you recommend the raise be? should a ref make the same rate as a union carpenter or union plumber? ($100hr+-) maybe a doctor or lawyer? ($200hr+) what are we talking about?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/12/19 02:27 PM
still waiting for someone to tell me if there was value in the first classes
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/12/19 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Oh no I do get it, you don’t get it maybe if you read the whole thread you would know. My daughter was a referee and worked 5 games straight at a tournament all small sided games and she got a check for $158 right then and there. So you lay out that money and you work as an AR for a Spring or Fall Season and trust me a young person that can work 10 games a weekend can do very well indeed. 10 Weekend games in U14 games at $30/game is $300. Do it again next weekend and you just doubled your money. $600! Boom! Then you have 8 weekends left in the season. No 14 year old can make that money in any job! This example is U14 games, you can even make more as you gain more experience and work older higher level games. Tournament money is additional.

They will definitely make the money back quickly the question is will they stick with it? When I say that instructors don’t teach for free all I am doing is showing you that there is a cost to the training and a facility to have to use why a club would pay for that in addition to registration fees, referee fees, tournament fees, trainer fees, indoor winter facility fees, fees on fees if you feel it is fair to just charge the parents and as long as it is a transparent charge that parents are aware of then fine. But I just don’t see people paying all these fees and clubs asking people to pay more fees so that the referee that they will be paying to work their game can have a free class. When you really look at the real numbers it is not fair or a financially sound argument to make to the people that would end up paying for it.

In actuality the fees for the class is a tiny amount of money as you have to buy shoes, socks, uniform items, cold gear, food, drinks, etc.I say raise the pay make it very attractive to become a referee especially a young referee and that will indeed attract more people. There is still no guarantee they will stick with it.


Very few new refs are going to commit to 10 games a weekend the second they get their license. Realistically they are going to work just a few games each weekend as they get their feet wet, especially the teens that will needs rides from mom and dad to get to their games and the ones with kids themselves that also want to be able to spend time with their own families on the weekend. So the reality is that your average new ref is looking at working for up to a month before they see their return on investment.

And it is completely fair to charge the parents for all of this because they are the customer. They are the ones that need the referee coverage. In fact, your own argument to raise the pay of the refs to make it more attractive shows that you believe it's perfectly fair to charge the parents more too so you are undercutting your own point. Only the way you want to do it, the experienced refs that do run around like lunatics doing 10 games a weekend as center refs are going to get the lions share of that additional pay as opposed to cutting the newbie ARs a break in lowering the cost threshold for them to get into the career.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/12/19 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Oh no I do get it, you don’t get it maybe if you read the whole thread you would know. My daughter was a referee and worked 5 games straight at a tournament all small sided games and she got a check for $158 right then and there. So you lay out that money and you work as an AR for a Spring or Fall Season and trust me a young person that can work 10 games a weekend can do very well indeed. 10 Weekend games in U14 games at $30/game is $300. Do it again next weekend and you just doubled your money. $600! Boom! Then you have 8 weekends left in the season. No 14 year old can make that money in any job! This example is U14 games, you can even make more as you gain more experience and work older higher level games. Tournament money is additional.

They will definitely make the money back quickly the question is will they stick with it? When I say that instructors don’t teach for free all I am doing is showing you that there is a cost to the training and a facility to have to use why a club would pay for that in addition to registration fees, referee fees, tournament fees, trainer fees, indoor winter facility fees, fees on fees if you feel it is fair to just charge the parents and as long as it is a transparent charge that parents are aware of then fine. But I just don’t see people paying all these fees and clubs asking people to pay more fees so that the referee that they will be paying to work their game can have a free class. When you really look at the real numbers it is not fair or a financially sound argument to make to the people that would end up paying for it.

In actuality the fees for the class is a tiny amount of money as you have to buy shoes, socks, uniform items, cold gear, food, drinks, etc.I say raise the pay make it very attractive to become a referee especially a young referee and that will indeed attract more people. There is still no guarantee they will stick with it.


Very few new refs are going to commit to 10 games a weekend the second they get their license. Realistically they are going to work just a few games each weekend as they get their feet wet, especially the teens that will needs rides from mom and dad to get to their games and the ones with kids themselves that also want to be able to spend time with their own families on the weekend. So the reality is that your average new ref is looking at working for up to a month before they see their return on investment.

And it is completely fair to charge the parents for all of this because they are the customer. They are the ones that need the referee coverage. In fact, your own argument to raise the pay of the refs to make it more attractive shows that you believe it's perfectly fair to charge the parents more too so you are undercutting your own point. Only the way you want to do it, the experienced refs that do run around like lunatics doing 10 games a weekend as center refs are going to get the lions share of that additional pay as opposed to cutting the newbie ARs a break in lowering the cost threshold for them to get into the career.



just responding to your 1st sentence.....the parents already pay the referees!!!!!!!! The parents have been doing this since day one!!!! (where else do you you think the money ultimately comes from?)
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/12/19 08:03 PM
Again you are wrong-let’s stick to the facts. The parents pay for the referee when he works a game, not for the training. Paying for a service that is essential to the game is one thing, I will say it again subsidizing training for individuals that will then go out and earn money makes no sense there is no economic need to do this.

Ok new referees may not work 10 games a weekend but over a 10 week season they can easily work 50 games!! Even if they only work 25 games over a 10 week season that is a minimum of $750 and that easily pays for all the costs related to becoming a referee. Let’s not forget they get paid CASH before the game so they don’t have long to make their money back.

As far as how much of a raise referees should get maybe it should be equal to what a trainer charges ONE team for a training session, maybe the minimum for an AR should be $40 but that is not up to me. In any job the higher the pay the more it attracts applicants, it is a fact! If you want to increase the participation rate and increase the quality and pool of applicants more pay is one way to do it.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/12/19 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Again you are wrong-let’s stick to the facts. The parents pay for the referee when he works a game, not for the training. Paying for a service that is essential to the game is one thing, I will say it again subsidizing training for individuals that will then go out and earn money makes no sense there is no economic need to do this.

Ok new referees may not work 10 games a weekend but over a 10 week season they can easily work 50 games!! Even if they only work 25 games over a 10 week season that is a minimum of $750 and that easily pays for all the costs related to becoming a referee. Let’s not forget they get paid CASH before the game so they don’t have long to make their money back.

As far as how much of a raise referees should get maybe it should be equal to what a trainer charges ONE team for a training session, maybe the minimum for an AR should be $40 but that is not up to me. In any job the higher the pay the more it attracts applicants, it is a fact! If you want to increase the participation rate and increase the quality and pool of applicants more pay is one way to do it.


Someone needs to retake economics 101. In the end, the customer pays for EVERYTHING. The product, the R&D, the training, the electric bill at the manufacturer, the sub-contractors, the janitors that clean the buildings at night, the people that mow the grass, everything. Every single cost associated with every single expense on the vendor end gets paid for by the customer. The only question is how long it takes to recoup the upfront costs. When a drug company pays billions of dollars developing hundreds of drugs to see only a handful going to market, the money from the customer is not just paying for the drugs that went to market, but also for all the R&D that went to the drugs that never made it to market. Businesses would fail otherwise.

When you try claiming that the parents shouldn't pay for the referee training you are missing the fact that they are already paying for the referee training. Every ref they pay at every game is not only paying for the time that their are on the field, but it is also paying for the ref's car to get there, the fuel in that car, the whistle in their hand, the uniforms they wear, the cards in their pocket and yes, the cost to register ref in the first place, the certification tests along with their union dues.

The question is how much money should the parents be spending for the service and how that money gets allocated. Currently the money is allocated fully to the referees that physically show up at the games. Increasing that pay, as you suggest, would probably see a difference in how many people sign up to be referees, but it would also be increasing the pay of the refs that would have already been there had the rate not increased. In essence all you are doing is to give a raise to people where the vast majority of them would have been still showing up to do the job at the old rate. Most of the increased money spent would not go towards the intended purpose of increasing the size of the referee pool. But if we instead took 100% of the increased money being asked of the parents and spent it in a way that focused just on new referees, such as providing a free uniform/card kit and to defray the costs of their initial training and certification, I'd bet that the ROI from the increased fees to the parents would be a whole lot higher.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/12/19 10:08 PM
all this bs sounds like communism to me buddy!!!!!!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/13/19 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
all this bs sounds like communism to me buddy!!!!!!


Please take your exclamation points and shove them where the sun does not shine. This is one of the few grown up threads right now and your vitriol is unwelcome here, as it surely is in all the other places your troll your silliness. It’s not funny, adds nothing, is a waste of our time to even read and shows an appalling paucity of grasp wherever you spew it. Make an intelligent or interesting point, or please for the sake of all who actually care about the beautiful game, just piss off.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/13/19 01:55 PM
wow, based on your response you are really offended!!!! good you should be....but based on your bs response...I can easily copy/paste it and offer it right back at you....perhaps you would take your own advice?....Liberal Hypocrisy in hi gear as always.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/18/19 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
all this bs sounds like communism to me buddy!!!!!!


Please take your exclamation points and shove them where the sun does not shine. This is one of the few grown up threads right now and your vitriol is unwelcome here, as it surely is in all the other places your troll your silliness. It’s not funny, adds nothing, is a waste of our time to even read and shows an appalling paucity of grasp wherever you spew it. Make an intelligent or interesting point, or please for the sake of all who actually care about the beautiful game, just piss off.


Sometimes a poster encapsulates and captures the exact reason why youth soccer has the problems it has. If you don’t believe that the lack of civility has an effect on the referee shortage perhaps we all need to tone it down. Just a little? Maybe?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/19/19 01:30 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
all this bs sounds like communism to me buddy!!!!!!


Please take your exclamation points and shove them where the sun does not shine. This is one of the few grown up threads right now and your vitriol is unwelcome here, as it surely is in all the other places your troll your silliness. It’s not funny, adds nothing, is a waste of our time to even read and shows an appalling paucity of grasp wherever you spew it. Make an intelligent or interesting point, or please for the sake of all who actually care about the beautiful game, just piss off.


Sometimes a poster encapsulates and captures the exact reason why youth soccer has the problems it has. If you don’t believe that the lack of civility has an effect on the referee shortage perhaps we all need to tone it down. Just a little? Maybe?


Nope not at all...
Problem #1 with youth sports is the participation Trophy.
Problem #2 with youth sports are that the referees think they deserve participation trophys as well.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/19/19 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous

Nope not at all...
Problem #1 with youth sports is the participation Trophy.
Problem #2 with youth sports are that the referees think they deserve participation trophys as well.

I don't officiate soccer, I do another sport with dumba$$ parents, not unlike you.

Think you have the answer? Think you can do better...pick up the f$%#ing whistle and show us. Come on tough guy...you anonymous keyboard warrior. Come on, get out there and show us how it's done.

The proper solution is for the children of adult age to act like the children of child age...they're more mature then y'all. That would solve EVERYTHING. But it wont.

So I'll postulate a few real world solutions:

1. Raise game fees for officials.
2. Ban everyone but PARTICIPANTS from the field. A participant is a coach, a player, an official. Everyone else...goodbye! You have no RIGHT to be there. It's a privilege.
3. Zero tolerance for coaches who argue calls. You don't get to litigate the game.
4. Any red card of a player(due to violence or abuse of an official), parent or coach results in a $1000 fine for the team before they can play their next US Soccer sanctioned game. Fine is paid to the referee's association to offset the costs of putting new officials into the vocation.


As officials you need to understand something, the league you're working for essentially rents/leases the field for the time you're there. You, as the official, are in complete charge of what happens. Therefore, use your whistle and voice to be in charge. No warnings, no talking to them. One complaint...send them packing. They continue to argue, tell them that if they do not leave the facility they will be charged with criminal trespassing. Still don't leave, end the game on the spot and call the police to have them arrested for trespassing. Wash, rinse, repeat as necessary.

We officials need to realize, playing nice and with kid gloves with coaches, parents and even players who feel they have some sort of right to yell at you, doesn't work! It emboldens them. How many more of our officials brethren need to be assaulted physically or verbally before we say enough is enough? Get them arrested. Court costs and legal fees will really really deter this behavior.

There needs to be a REAL penalty for this behavior, one that everyone feels in order for behavior to change.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/19/19 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous

Nope not at all...
Problem #1 with youth sports is the participation Trophy.
Problem #2 with youth sports are that the referees think they deserve participation trophys as well.

I don't officiate soccer, I do another sport with dumba$$ parents, not unlike you.

Think you have the answer? Think you can do better...pick up the f$%#ing whistle and show us. Come on tough guy...you anonymous keyboard warrior. Come on, get out there and show us how it's done.

The proper solution is for the children of adult age to act like the children of child age...they're more mature then y'all. That would solve EVERYTHING. But it wont.

So I'll postulate a few real world solutions:

1. Raise game fees for officials.
2. Ban everyone but PARTICIPANTS from the field. A participant is a coach, a player, an official. Everyone else...goodbye! You have no RIGHT to be there. It's a privilege.
3. Zero tolerance for coaches who argue calls. You don't get to litigate the game.
4. Any red card of a player(due to violence or abuse of an official), parent or coach results in a $1000 fine for the team before they can play their next US Soccer sanctioned game. Fine is paid to the referee's association to offset the costs of putting new officials into the vocation.


As officials you need to understand something, the league you're working for essentially rents/leases the field for the time you're there. You, as the official, are in complete charge of what happens. Therefore, use your whistle and voice to be in charge. No warnings, no talking to them. One complaint...send them packing. They continue to argue, tell them that if they do not leave the facility they will be charged with criminal trespassing. Still don't leave, end the game on the spot and call the police to have them arrested for trespassing. Wash, rinse, repeat as necessary.

We officials need to realize, playing nice and with kid gloves with coaches, parents and even players who feel they have some sort of right to yell at you, doesn't work! It emboldens them. How many more of our officials brethren need to be assaulted physically or verbally before we say enough is enough? Get them arrested. Court costs and legal fees will really really deter this behavior.

There needs to be a REAL penalty for this behavior, one that everyone feels in order for behavior to change.


wow, for somebody to call me a "keyboard warrior" you certainly wrote alot of bs....did anyone on this thread actually read this from top to bottom? (i certainly did not)....you my friend have just won the undisputed Heavy Weight "Keyboard Warrior" Championship on BOTN.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/19/19 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous

wow, for somebody to call me a "keyboard warrior" you certainly wrote alot of bs....did anyone on this thread actually read this from top to bottom? (i certainly did not)....you my friend have just won the undisputed Heavy Weight "Keyboard Warrior" Championship on BOTN.

Shhh the adults are talking, go back to the kiddie table.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/19/19 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
all this bs sounds like communism to me buddy!!!!!!


Please take your exclamation points and shove them where the sun does not shine. This is one of the few grown up threads right now and your vitriol is unwelcome here, as it surely is in all the other places your troll your silliness. It’s not funny, adds nothing, is a waste of our time to even read and shows an appalling paucity of grasp wherever you spew it. Make an intelligent or interesting point, or please for the sake of all who actually care about the beautiful game, just piss off.


Sometimes a poster encapsulates and captures the exact reason why youth soccer has the problems it has. If you don’t believe that the lack of civility has an effect on the referee shortage perhaps we all need to tone it down. Just a little? Maybe?


Nope not at all...
Problem #1 with youth sports is the participation Trophy.
Problem #2 with youth sports are that the referees think they deserve participation trophys as well.


WOW winner of the most clueless person of the year, but still a few more days to go for someone to add a more clueless post
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/20/19 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
all this bs sounds like communism to me buddy!!!!!!


Please take your exclamation points and shove them where the sun does not shine. This is one of the few grown up threads right now and your vitriol is unwelcome here, as it surely is in all the other places your troll your silliness. It’s not funny, adds nothing, is a waste of our time to even read and shows an appalling paucity of grasp wherever you spew it. Make an intelligent or interesting point, or please for the sake of all who actually care about the beautiful game, just piss off.


Sometimes a poster encapsulates and captures the exact reason why youth soccer has the problems it has. If you don’t believe that the lack of civility has an effect on the referee shortage perhaps we all need to tone it down. Just a little? Maybe?


Nope not at all...
Problem #1 with youth sports is the participation Trophy.
Problem #2 with youth sports are that the referees think they deserve participation trophys as well.


The #1 problem with youth sports are parents, especially the Bulldozer parent crowd. Parents want the damned participation trophies. Who do you think instills it into the kids heads that they need a trophy? The moron parents do. And yes, the lack of sportsmanship and civility is a direct cause of younger referee shortage. Tone it down a lot I say to all the clubs/academies that tolerate such stupidity.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/20/19 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
all this bs sounds like communism to me buddy!!!!!!


Please take your exclamation points and shove them where the sun does not shine. This is one of the few grown up threads right now and your vitriol is unwelcome here, as it surely is in all the other places your troll your silliness. It’s not funny, adds nothing, is a waste of our time to even read and shows an appalling paucity of grasp wherever you spew it. Make an intelligent or interesting point, or please for the sake of all who actually care about the beautiful game, just piss off.


Sometimes a poster encapsulates and captures the exact reason why youth soccer has the problems it has. If you don’t believe that the lack of civility has an effect on the referee shortage perhaps we all need to tone it down. Just a little? Maybe?


Nope not at all...
Problem #1 with youth sports is the participation Trophy.
Problem #2 with youth sports are that the referees think they deserve participation trophys as well.


The #1 problem with youth sports are parents, especially the Bulldozer parent crowd. Parents want the damned participation trophies. Who do you think instills it into the kids heads that they need a trophy? The moron parents do. And yes, the lack of sportsmanship and civility is a direct cause of younger referee shortage. Tone it down a lot I say to all the clubs/academies that tolerate such stupidity.



Nope sorry, parents do not buy the trophy's the club buys all the trophys as a marketing gimmick for all the little johny numbnuts and little rosie rottencrocthes out there.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/20/19 03:49 PM
And so it continues another alleged adult that finds it necessary to refer to children in such a derogatory and inappropriate manner-

Can we get back to Referee Shortage Soultions?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/20/19 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
And so it continues another alleged adult that finds it necessary to refer to children in such a derogatory and inappropriate manner-

Can we get back to Referee Shortage Soultions?


Make coaches that get red cards have to go through a mandatory rules/behavioral class before they get their passes back. That would be a much stronger deterrent to abusive behavior than sitting out a game or two is.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/20/19 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
And so it continues another alleged adult that finds it necessary to refer to children in such a derogatory and inappropriate manner-

Can we get back to Referee Shortage Soultions?


Make coaches that get red cards have to go through a mandatory rules/behavioral class before they get their passes back. That would be a much stronger deterrent to abusive behavior than sitting out a game or two is.

Ditto that for the parent tossed from the field and/or cause the coach to get a red card
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/20/19 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
And so it continues another alleged adult that finds it necessary to refer to children in such a derogatory and inappropriate manner-

Can we get back to Referee Shortage Soultions?


Make coaches that get red cards have to go through a mandatory rules/behavioral class before they get their passes back. That would be a much stronger deterrent to abusive behavior than sitting out a game or two is.


Give the referees there participation trophys...that should be good enough for a while.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/20/19 04:30 PM
Nope sorry, parents do not buy the trophy's the club buys all the trophys as a marketing gimmick for all the little johny numbnuts and little rosie rottencrocthes out there.[/quote]

You would not know how it works as I doubt you serve on your clubs Board the way you refer to children here. When a Board decides not to give out participation trophies, the moms and dads cry and scream bloody murder, send nasty emails or make negative facebook posts. Boards cave in to parents. These same type of crybaby parents end up being the problem sideline parents we need to eliminate in order to cultivate young referees who stick with the game. I personally hate participation trophies. My four kids were raised that if you want a trophy, work hard and earn one with your team.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/20/19 04:31 PM
Coordinate the referee assigning between all the various leagues better. For example, my club has teams in both LIJSL, EDP and NYPL as well as several teams in the NY Cup. When we have back to back games between the four on the same exact field we end up getting four different referee crews. Not only does this cause the referees to cover less games because they have to build in travel time between them but it also is one more thing that is especially annoying to younger refs that need rides to their jobs.

Even within the same league if multiple clubs share fields they end up getting different referees assigned to back to back games.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/20/19 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Nope sorry, parents do not buy the trophy's the club buys all the trophys as a marketing gimmick for all the little johny numbnuts and little rosie rottencrocthes out there.


You would not know how it works as I doubt you serve on your clubs Board the way you refer to children here. When a Board decides not to give out participation trophies, the moms and dads cry and scream bloody murder, send nasty emails or make negative facebook posts. Boards cave in to parents. These same type of crybaby parents end up being the problem sideline parents we need to eliminate in order to cultivate young referees who stick with the game. I personally hate participation trophies. My four kids were raised that if you want a trophy, work hard and earn one with your team. [/quote]

sorry, but you are full of BS. Tell us all right now which club board has ever decided to do away with u little trophys for the younglings.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/20/19 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Nope sorry, parents do not buy the trophy's the club buys all the trophys as a marketing gimmick for all the little johny numbnuts and little rosie rottencrocthes out there.


You would not know how it works as I doubt you serve on your clubs Board the way you refer to children here. When a Board decides not to give out participation trophies, the moms and dads cry and scream bloody murder, send nasty emails or make negative facebook posts. Boards cave in to parents. These same type of crybaby parents end up being the problem sideline parents we need to eliminate in order to cultivate young referees who stick with the game. I personally hate participation trophies. My four kids were raised that if you want a trophy, work hard and earn one with your team.


sorry, but you are full of BS. Tell us all right now which club board has ever decided to do away with u little trophys for the younglings.[/quote]

No, I'm 100% BS free, been there before as a Board member opposed to trophies. Several clubs I know have looked to eliminate the trophies and have suffered backlash from the trophy seeking parents. They all go right back to giving them out. Doesn't make it right or a good excuse, but they still do.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/22/19 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Again you are wrong-let’s stick to the facts. The parents pay for the referee when he works a game, not for the training. Paying for a service that is essential to the game is one thing, I will say it again subsidizing training for individuals that will then go out and earn money makes no sense there is no economic need to do this.

Ok new referees may not work 10 games a weekend but over a 10 week season they can easily work 50 games!! Even if they only work 25 games over a 10 week season that is a minimum of $750 and that easily pays for all the costs related to becoming a referee. Let’s not forget they get paid CASH before the game so they don’t have long to make their money back.

As far as how much of a raise referees should get maybe it should be equal to what a trainer charges ONE team for a training session, maybe the minimum for an AR should be $40 but that is not up to me. In any job the higher the pay the more it attracts applicants, it is a fact! If you want to increase the participation rate and increase the quality and pool of applicants more pay is one way to do it.


Someone needs to retake economics 101. In the end, the customer pays for EVERYTHING. The product, the R&D, the training, the electric bill at the manufacturer, the sub-contractors, the janitors that clean the buildings at night, the people that mow the grass, everything. Every single cost associated with every single expense on the vendor end gets paid for by the customer. The only question is how long it takes to recoup the upfront costs. When a drug company pays billions of dollars developing hundreds of drugs to see only a handful going to market, the money from the customer is not just paying for the drugs that went to market, but also for all the R&D that went to the drugs that never made it to market. Businesses would fail otherwise.

When you try claiming that the parents shouldn't pay for the referee training you are missing the fact that they are already paying for the referee training. Every ref they pay at every game is not only paying for the time that their are on the field, but it is also paying for the ref's car to get there, the fuel in that car, the whistle in their hand, the uniforms they wear, the cards in their pocket and yes, the cost to register ref in the first place, the certification tests along with their union dues.

The question is how much money should the parents be spending for the service and how that money gets allocated. Currently the money is allocated fully to the referees that physically show up at the games. Increasing that pay, as you suggest, would probably see a difference in how many people sign up to be referees, but it would also be increasing the pay of the refs that would have already been there had the rate not increased. In essence all you are doing is to give a raise to people where the vast majority of them would have been still showing up to do the job at the old rate. Most of the increased money spent would not go towards the intended purpose of increasing the size of the referee pool. But if we instead took 100% of the increased money being asked of the parents and spent it in a way that focused just on new referees, such as providing a free uniform/card kit and to defray the costs of their initial training and certification, I'd bet that the ROI from the increased fees to the parents would be a whole lot higher.




Economics 101? Are you kidding? No one pays for my gas, for my registration, for my recertification, for my whistle, etc. I get paid to work a game, period. I’ve already conceded that maybe you can make the training free and see what happens.
Again though when you make something free for the person, they place less value on it and will tend to drop out more because they have invested zero.
What some of us are missing here is that it’s not just about getting new referees but keeping the experienced referees in our ranks and that’s where the increased pay is about. Think about it if you’re paying for the training for new referees would that not be somewhat unfair to the current referees that are not getting subsidized for their recertification costs?
I’m not rejecting your idea but I get the feeling that the parents don’t want to pay more than they are already paying.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/22/19 10:46 PM
More pay for CR's (make kids want to go to the center)
21st century automated online training with videos, modules, tests etc
The worlds largest game is woefuly behind the times
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/23/19 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
And so it continues another alleged adult that finds it necessary to refer to children in such a derogatory and inappropriate manner-

Can we get back to Referee Shortage Soultions?


Make coaches that get red cards have to go through a mandatory rules/behavioral class before they get their passes back. That would be a much stronger deterrent to abusive behavior than sitting out a game or two is.

Fine the team an inordinate amount of money. $1000 an incident would do. This will stop immediately.

Parents think that because they pay for their kid to play they are entitled to say whatever, whenever they want. So make them pay for the right to say it. Zero tolerance and the fines go to the referee's association for a scholarship fund. Making people sit through a class doesn't make their behavior change. Hit them where it hurts the most. The pocket! Travel sports is expensive enough, make acting badly become REALLY expensive. Problem will solve itself.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 12/23/19 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
And so it continues another alleged adult that finds it necessary to refer to children in such a derogatory and inappropriate manner-

Can we get back to Referee Shortage Soultions?


Make coaches that get red cards have to go through a mandatory rules/behavioral class before they get their passes back. That would be a much stronger deterrent to abusive behavior than sitting out a game or two is.

Fine the team an inordinate amount of money. $1000 an incident would do. This will stop immediately.

Parents think that because they pay for their kid to play they are entitled to say whatever, whenever they want. So make them pay for the right to say it. Zero tolerance and the fines go to the referee's association for a scholarship fund. Making people sit through a class doesn't make their behavior change. Hit them where it hurts the most. The pocket! Travel sports is expensive enough, make acting badly become REALLY expensive. Problem will solve itself.


lmao!!!! yea ok....lets see how many turnovers happen once the coach asks for more money!!!!!! why would I stick around?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/05/20 11:55 PM
Anyone go to the meeting yet?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/08/20 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
And so it continues another alleged adult that finds it necessary to refer to children in such a derogatory and inappropriate manner-

Can we get back to Referee Shortage Soultions?


Make coaches that get red cards have to go through a mandatory rules/behavioral class before they get their passes back. That would be a much stronger deterrent to abusive behavior than sitting out a game or two is.

Fine the team an inordinate amount of money. $1000 an incident would do. This will stop immediately.

Parents think that because they pay for their kid to play they are entitled to say whatever, whenever they want. So make them pay for the right to say it. Zero tolerance and the fines go to the referee's association for a scholarship fund. Making people sit through a class doesn't make their behavior change. Hit them where it hurts the most. The pocket! Travel sports is expensive enough, make acting badly become REALLY expensive. Problem will solve itself.


lmao!!!! yea ok....lets see how many turnovers happen once the coach asks for more money!!!!!! why would I stick around?


EXACTLY! Now you see how that works. Say a coach or parent verbally abuses an official, gets carded, team fined $1000 and you have to pony up and yet you did nothing! You're pissed off right? That SOB just cost you what..$75? Maybe once you tolerate that behavior. But it happens again. Then what?

If a coach, we want a new coach this guy's costing us more money!

If it's a parent, either the parent can't come or their kid is cut because of the parent's behavior.

If it's a kid on the team, the kid is costing YOU money, you're gonna try and make that kid's parents pony up...they wont as you all knew it was the rules, you're either going to find a program/team where that doesn't happen and isn't tolerated, or you and the rest of the parents are going to get that kid cut because they're costing you more money!

This is how punitive measure work when they have teeth!

FWIW NYS is trying to deal with this. There's a bill in the NYS Senate for an amendment to an existing law to make abuse of an official a Class B Misdemeanor which is in NYS punishable of fine and up to 3 mos in jail.

Here's the bill: https://legislation.nysenate.gov/pdf/bills/2019/S6747

Contact your state senator here: https://www.nysenate.gov/contact and let them know you support this bill.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/08/20 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
And so it continues another alleged adult that finds it necessary to refer to children in such a derogatory and inappropriate manner-

Can we get back to Referee Shortage Soultions?


Make coaches that get red cards have to go through a mandatory rules/behavioral class before they get their passes back. That would be a much stronger deterrent to abusive behavior than sitting out a game or two is.

Fine the team an inordinate amount of money. $1000 an incident would do. This will stop immediately.

Parents think that because they pay for their kid to play they are entitled to say whatever, whenever they want. So make them pay for the right to say it. Zero tolerance and the fines go to the referee's association for a scholarship fund. Making people sit through a class doesn't make their behavior change. Hit them where it hurts the most. The pocket! Travel sports is expensive enough, make acting badly become REALLY expensive. Problem will solve itself.


lmao!!!! yea ok....lets see how many turnovers happen once the coach asks for more money!!!!!! why would I stick around?


EXACTLY! Now you see how that works. Say a coach or parent verbally abuses an official, gets carded, team fined $1000 and you have to pony up and yet you did nothing! You're pissed off right? That SOB just cost you what..$75? Maybe once you tolerate that behavior. But it happens again. Then what?

If a coach, we want a new coach this guy's costing us more money!

If it's a parent, either the parent can't come or their kid is cut because of the parent's behavior.

If it's a kid on the team, the kid is costing YOU money, you're gonna try and make that kid's parents pony up...they wont as you all knew it was the rules, you're either going to find a program/team where that doesn't happen and isn't tolerated, or you and the rest of the parents are going to get that kid cut because they're costing you more money!

This is how punitive measure work when they have teeth!

FWIW NYS is trying to deal with this. There's a bill in the NYS Senate for an amendment to an existing law to make abuse of an official a Class B Misdemeanor which is in NYS punishable of fine and up to 3 mos in jail.

Here's the bill: https://legislation.nysenate.gov/pdf/bills/2019/S6747

Contact your state senator here: https://www.nysenate.gov/contact and let them know you support this bill.


so with your reasoning and methodology...we should no longer have people driving under the influence of drugs/alcohol, no more murders, Driving over the speed limit, ect....since these are all rules that when broken have major consequences...Yes? So why do they still happen? (there are a million reasons)....with that being said, your dumb_ss idea simply will not work because human beings simply cannot help themselves.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/09/20 01:25 PM
To me, it's the clubs themselves that harbor much of the blame. Parents and players take their lead from the clubs.

I watched the World Class Director of Coaching get tossed from a tournament for berating a ref. Parents to this day defend him. You think the kids aren't going to have the same behavior? You think the parents won't lay off a ref, knowing the person who basically runs the club treats refs like garbage?

I'd push for carding of the coach, start with a yellow if they get a second, the team forfeits and for good measure...fine them before they can play again.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/09/20 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
To me, it's the clubs themselves that harbor much of the blame. Parents and players take their lead from the clubs.

I watched the World Class Director of Coaching get tossed from a tournament for berating a ref. Parents to this day defend him. You think the kids aren't going to have the same behavior? You think the parents won't lay off a ref, knowing the person who basically runs the club treats refs like garbage?

I'd push for carding of the coach, start with a yellow if they get a second, the team forfeits and for good measure...fine them before they can play again.


the ref has the ultimate authority to card anyone on and off the field...for any reason they see fit (whether you agree with it or not).
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/10/20 06:04 PM
but the problem is at some tournaments or clubs when you as a ref red card a coach or director, me as a ref, i red carded a coach a tournament
and they told me not to go back to that tournament .
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/10/20 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
but the problem is at some tournaments or clubs when you as a ref red card a coach or director, me as a ref, i red carded a coach a tournament
and they told me not to go back to that tournament .


oh well, you just can't please everyone all the time right? suck it up buttercup.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/10/20 10:35 PM
I wonder what the LISRA position is on referees wearing body cameras to record abuse by the coaches and parents.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/13/20 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I wonder what the LISRA position is on referees wearing body cameras to record abuse by the coaches and parents.



Just what we need. Refs filming sideline action instead of watching field action. Maybe we use VAR to correct bad calls also.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/13/20 07:42 PM
Yes, we are all for VAR...but I'm 1000% sure mr. referee here does not want them.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/14/20 05:32 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Yes, we are all for VAR...but I'm 1000% sure mr. referee here does not want them.


IF you are referring to me, I have 2 facts you may be ignoring.
1- I love VAR it allows officials to get it right which is what we want. This is the problem with a very small minority of soccer fans. Somehow you think referees don’t care if they get it right or not?

2- Show me any youth league that will pay to set up VAR, wants to pay for VAR or has the resources to pay for VAR. There is not one. Here’s an obvious point you missed. The point of this forum is essentially the fact that we have a REFEREE SHORTAGE. So where would these additional referees come from to operate as VARs????

Let’s also get the Hawkeye systems so that when a sensor inside the ball senses that it has crossed the goal line my referee watch will vibrate and I can confirm that it’s a goal. Wait, that system costs over $200,000 that’s not a problem for any youth league right?
As for body cameras there are privacy issues shooting videos of children but no one uses this even though the MLS experimented with it and gave it up. Why should I have to wear a camera as if I were a law enforcement official? To gather evidence? Of what? My mistakes? The aberrant behavior of a very few knuckleheads? Who would review these videos?
Can we just keep this youth game simple?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/14/20 01:09 PM
Var wil ruin football as it stands, people are already going to lower league football games because there is no var, it's a f...ing joke.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/14/20 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Yes, we are all for VAR...but I'm 1000% sure mr. referee here does not want them.


IF you are referring to me, I have 2 facts you may be ignoring.
1- I love VAR it allows officials to get it right which is what we want. This is the problem with a very small minority of soccer fans. Somehow you think referees don’t care if they get it right or not?

2- Show me any youth league that will pay to set up VAR, wants to pay for VAR or has the resources to pay for VAR. There is not one. Here’s an obvious point you missed. The point of this forum is essentially the fact that we have a REFEREE SHORTAGE. So where would these additional referees come from to operate as VARs????

Let’s also get the Hawkeye systems so that when a sensor inside the ball senses that it has crossed the goal line my referee watch will vibrate and I can confirm that it’s a goal. Wait, that system costs over $200,000 that’s not a problem for any youth league right?
As for body cameras there are privacy issues shooting videos of children but no one uses this even though the MLS experimented with it and gave it up. Why should I have to wear a camera as if I were a law enforcement official? To gather evidence? Of what? My mistakes? The aberrant behavior of a very few knuckleheads? Who would review these videos?
Can we just keep this youth game simple?


LIRef77...Chill out dude, i'm just messing with you (busting your balls) i know who you are...you coached my son, you are probably his most favorite coach ever....maybe refereeing not so much smile
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/14/20 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77

As for body cameras there are privacy issues shooting videos of children

Actually there are not. At least not on a soccer field. If the general public can see them, you can take video/still pictures.

How to keep refs? Two things...
1) Better pay (most people are willing to put up with more crap if they get paid more, this is in any job).
2) Better treatment from coaches, players, and spectators.

#2 is a multi step issue. As someone mentioned way up thread, watch the pros argue every call. "Hey, if Messi can get away with it, I can too!" I think there does need to be stricter penalties, but on a sliding scale. The problem is where do you draw the line? And everyone's line will be different, and even one person's line could change (what a ref lets someone get away with in their first game, they may not let someone get away with in their fifth."

PP idea of severe punishments to the team for red cards ($1000 fine) is a little extreme. Simply send the offending parent to the parking lot. If you can't tell who the offending parent is, 100%, then you do nothing. Send offs of parents and coaches need to be tracked, at both tournaments and league games. An excessive amount of send offs should cause a fine. But, what's "excessive", how large is the fine, and who pays it?

Every sport has troublesome fans. This is not particular to soccer. So what's changed?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/14/20 03:52 PM
Agreed, things could be a hell lot worse in a real soccer 1st country like Brazil!!!!! smile

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...fter-stabbing-player-to-death-in-brazil/
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/15/20 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous


EXACTLY! Now you see how that works. Say a coach or parent verbally abuses an official, gets carded, team fined $1000 and you have to pony up and yet you did nothing! You're pissed off right? That SOB just cost you what..$75? Maybe once you tolerate that behavior. But it happens again. Then what?

If a coach, we want a new coach this guy's costing us more money!

If it's a parent, either the parent can't come or their kid is cut because of the parent's behavior.

If it's a kid on the team, the kid is costing YOU money, you're gonna try and make that kid's parents pony up...they wont as you all knew it was the rules, you're either going to find a program/team where that doesn't happen and isn't tolerated, or you and the rest of the parents are going to get that kid cut because they're costing you more money!

This is how punitive measure work when they have teeth!

FWIW NYS is trying to deal with this. There's a bill in the NYS Senate for an amendment to an existing law to make abuse of an official a Class B Misdemeanor which is in NYS punishable of fine and up to 3 mos in jail.

Here's the bill: https://legislation.nysenate.gov/pdf/bills/2019/S6747

Contact your state senator here: https://www.nysenate.gov/contact and let them know you support this bill.


so with your reasoning and methodology...we should no longer have people driving under the influence of drugs/alcohol, no more murders, Driving over the speed limit, ect....since these are all rules that when broken have major consequences...Yes? So why do they still happen? (there are a million reasons)....with that being said, your dumb_ss idea simply will not work because human beings simply cannot help themselves.


Of course it will still happen, but youth sports is not society in totality. It's a much smaller subsection of society. Much easier to police through harsh, punitive fines.

If my kid was playing for a team where the coach or parents were getting multiple red cards a season and I had to pony up extra money in my already strapped Long Island budget, you bet your ass I'm speaking to the DoC to get the coach removed or the parent removed.

Your argument has several wonderful logical fallacies in it. So I wont address them because they're not worth my time.

The concept of I'm working with is simple. It's depicted lovingly in this little clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0omnHZewRAg One person violates the rules, you punish everyone for it. Eventually everyone will either correct the offender, or they will expel the offender. In my idea, if your team gets a red card that is worthy of a fine, then your team cannot compete until the fine is paid. Say you don't get the fine in on time...miss next game. Pretty sure all the parents, and kids are going to be pissed at the offender wasting their time and their money and hurting the team.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/15/20 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77

As for body cameras there are privacy issues shooting videos of children

Actually there are not. At least not on a soccer field. If the general public can see them, you can take video/still pictures.

How to keep refs? Two things...
1) Better pay (most people are willing to put up with more crap if they get paid more, this is in any job).
2) Better treatment from coaches, players, and spectators.

#2 is a multi step issue. As someone mentioned way up thread, watch the pros argue every call. "Hey, if Messi can get away with it, I can too!" I think there does need to be stricter penalties, but on a sliding scale. The problem is where do you draw the line? And everyone's line will be different, and even one person's line could change (what a ref lets someone get away with in their first game, they may not let someone get away with in their fifth."

PP idea of severe punishments to the team for red cards ($1000 fine) is a little extreme. Simply send the offending parent to the parking lot. If you can't tell who the offending parent is, 100%, then you do nothing. Send offs of parents and coaches need to be tracked, at both tournaments and league games. An excessive amount of send offs should cause a fine. But, what's "excessive", how large is the fine, and who pays it?

Every sport has troublesome fans. This is not particular to soccer. So what's changed?


If it's not extreme there will be no change in conduct.

I'm a hockey official. Kids get tossed from the game with a particularly egregious penalty or a combination of 5 total minors, or 2 10 minute misconducts. The kids know this. They don't care that it hurts their team to be on the penalty kill. They know 'well we're losing and I'm pissed off, I have 3 penalties left before I get tossed so I'll go out and take 2 of them'. If a person knows they get 3 red cards before a fine...guess what...they're gonna take 2 before they change their behavior. If you make it ZERO tolerance day 1. Then there's no margin for error. There's no discretion used. There's no 'oh we'll fix that with them later'. There is no later. You get 1 shot. You screw it up...buh bye and F you pay me.

You don't get to get a few get out of jail free cards in life, why do you get them when verbally abusing someone? Your boss makes a bad decision can you in the next staff meeting stand up and scream at him call him a joke and question his judgment? Nope you get fired! There's a consequence at work for behaving badly. Make the consequence just as bad at the youth sporting event and people will self correct. It's really psychology 101 stuff.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/16/20 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77

As for body cameras there are privacy issues shooting videos of children

Actually there are not. At least not on a soccer field. If the general public can see them, you can take video/still pictures.

How to keep refs? Two things...
1) Better pay (most people are willing to put up with more crap if they get paid more, this is in any job).
2) Better treatment from coaches, players, and spectators.

#2 is a multi step issue. As someone mentioned way up thread, watch the pros argue every call. "Hey, if Messi can get away with it, I can too!" I think there does need to be stricter penalties, but on a sliding scale. The problem is where do you draw the line? And everyone's line will be different, and even one person's line could change (what a ref lets someone get away with in their first game, they may not let someone get away with in their fifth."

PP idea of severe punishments to the team for red cards ($1000 fine) is a little extreme. Simply send the offending parent to the parking lot. If you can't tell who the offending parent is, 100%, then you do nothing. Send offs of parents and coaches need to be tracked, at both tournaments and league games. An excessive amount of send offs should cause a fine. But, what's "excessive", how large is the fine, and who pays it?

Every sport has troublesome fans. This is not particular to soccer. So what's changed?


If it's not extreme there will be no change in conduct.

I'm a hockey official. Kids get tossed from the game with a particularly egregious penalty or a combination of 5 total minors, or 2 10 minute misconducts. The kids know this. They don't care that it hurts their team to be on the penalty kill. They know 'well we're losing and I'm pissed off, I have 3 penalties left before I get tossed so I'll go out and take 2 of them'. If a person knows they get 3 red cards before a fine...guess what...they're gonna take 2 before they change their behavior. If you make it ZERO tolerance day 1. Then there's no margin for error. There's no discretion used. There's no 'oh we'll fix that with them later'. There is no later. You get 1 shot. You screw it up...buh bye and F you pay me.

You don't get to get a few get out of jail free cards in life, why do you get them when verbally abusing someone? Your boss makes a bad decision can you in the next staff meeting stand up and scream at him call him a joke and question his judgment? Nope you get fired! There's a consequence at work for behaving badly. Make the consequence just as bad at the youth sporting event and people will self correct. It's really psychology 101 stuff.


Well I call my boss a bone head all the time....we both get into bloody screaming matches 1x or 2x a week at least, the secretary completely horrified but after the 1st month just laughs her _ss off all the time know when this happens. (this is going on 5+ years know)....You know why I'm still around? I make my boss money $$$$$$$. In the end...its all about the Benjamins.

Do you really think you are the smartest guy in the room with all the answers?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/16/20 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77

As for body cameras there are privacy issues shooting videos of children

Actually there are not. At least not on a soccer field. If the general public can see them, you can take video/still pictures.

How to keep refs? Two things...
1) Better pay (most people are willing to put up with more crap if they get paid more, this is in any job).
2) Better treatment from coaches, players, and spectators.

#2 is a multi step issue. As someone mentioned way up thread, watch the pros argue every call. "Hey, if Messi can get away with it, I can too!" I think there does need to be stricter penalties, but on a sliding scale. The problem is where do you draw the line? And everyone's line will be different, and even one person's line could change (what a ref lets someone get away with in their first game, they may not let someone get away with in their fifth."

PP idea of severe punishments to the team for red cards ($1000 fine) is a little extreme. Simply send the offending parent to the parking lot. If you can't tell who the offending parent is, 100%, then you do nothing. Send offs of parents and coaches need to be tracked, at both tournaments and league games. An excessive amount of send offs should cause a fine. But, what's "excessive", how large is the fine, and who pays it?

Every sport has troublesome fans. This is not particular to soccer. So what's changed?


If it's not extreme there will be no change in conduct.

I'm a hockey official. Kids get tossed from the game with a particularly egregious penalty or a combination of 5 total minors, or 2 10 minute misconducts. The kids know this. They don't care that it hurts their team to be on the penalty kill. They know 'well we're losing and I'm pissed off, I have 3 penalties left before I get tossed so I'll go out and take 2 of them'. If a person knows they get 3 red cards before a fine...guess what...they're gonna take 2 before they change their behavior. If you make it ZERO tolerance day 1. Then there's no margin for error. There's no discretion used. There's no 'oh we'll fix that with them later'. There is no later. You get 1 shot. You screw it up...buh bye and F you pay me.

You don't get to get a few get out of jail free cards in life, why do you get them when verbally abusing someone? Your boss makes a bad decision can you in the next staff meeting stand up and scream at him call him a joke and question his judgment? Nope you get fired! There's a consequence at work for behaving badly. Make the consequence just as bad at the youth sporting event and people will self correct. It's really psychology 101 stuff.


Well I call my boss a bone head all the time....we both get into bloody screaming matches 1x or 2x a week at least, the secretary completely horrified but after the 1st month just laughs her _ss off all the time know when this happens. (this is going on 5+ years know)....You know why I'm still around? I make my boss money $$$$$$$. In the end...its all about the Benjamins.

Do you really think you are the smartest guy in the room with all the answers?

Yes...it's all about the Benjamins. But if you screaming at people costs ME Benjamins I'm going to make sure you are never around ever again. I will make it my mission to end you and I win...always.

Am I the smartest guy in the room? This room...probably. Because most of y'all are a bunch of grown petulant children. Here's a hint...it's not about YOU. It's about the kids. The kids, your kids...hate you if you're a screaming or someone who makes a scene at games. Know how I know??? I talk to those kids. They all think people who make a scene are idiots.

Two actual conversations with kids during games with parents yelling about stupid things:

Me: Damn that guy's awfully mad.
u12: That's my dad.
Me: Oh...sorry.
u12: I just wish he'd shut up or stay in the car.
Me: Just tune him out and play you're doing great.
u12: Thanks.

---

<dad screaming in stands from opposing team>
Me: He's pretty pissed huh?
u14: yeah <rolls eyes>
Me: Wish parents weren't allowed to be in the rink.
u14: I know right, then we could just play.


I officiate almost 300 games a year. I see more kids, and more stupid parents in a year then you could ever imagine. I listen to the kids. They hate people who behave this way. All of them do, unless it's the kid who's emulating dad. My experience doing my job as an official working as many games as I do, makes me, on this topic, just about the smartest guy in the room.

My stories above...every single official here has dozens of them if not more where the kids are embarrassed at people like you, and your existence at their games.

Here's a tip. If you're not involved in the game in any way shape or form, STFU. It's not about you. Only people who can say anything about the game, the way it's officiated or played...are the players and the officials. Coaches need to STFU too unless you have a legitimate question to ask.

Last tip. Every official in every youth league in every youth sport thinks every single parent who opens their mouths is a friggin joke. If you cannot communicate with your boss using your words, you're a toddler. If you cannot communicate effectively with other adults or children without getting emotional...you're a toddler.

Grow up folks.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/16/20 11:36 PM
So do you eject these parents? If not, you're just adding to the problem.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/17/20 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77

As for body cameras there are privacy issues shooting videos of children

Actually there are not. At least not on a soccer field. If the general public can see them, you can take video/still pictures.

How to keep refs? Two things...
1) Better pay (most people are willing to put up with more crap if they get paid more, this is in any job).
2) Better treatment from coaches, players, and spectators.

#2 is a multi step issue. As someone mentioned way up thread, watch the pros argue every call. "Hey, if Messi can get away with it, I can too!" I think there does need to be stricter penalties, but on a sliding scale. The problem is where do you draw the line? And everyone's line will be different, and even one person's line could change (what a ref lets someone get away with in their first game, they may not let someone get away with in their fifth."

PP idea of severe punishments to the team for red cards ($1000 fine) is a little extreme. Simply send the offending parent to the parking lot. If you can't tell who the offending parent is, 100%, then you do nothing. Send offs of parents and coaches need to be tracked, at both tournaments and league games. An excessive amount of send offs should cause a fine. But, what's "excessive", how large is the fine, and who pays it?

Every sport has troublesome fans. This is not particular to soccer. So what's changed?


If it's not extreme there will be no change in conduct.

I'm a hockey official. Kids get tossed from the game with a particularly egregious penalty or a combination of 5 total minors, or 2 10 minute misconducts. The kids know this. They don't care that it hurts their team to be on the penalty kill. They know 'well we're losing and I'm pissed off, I have 3 penalties left before I get tossed so I'll go out and take 2 of them'. If a person knows they get 3 red cards before a fine...guess what...they're gonna take 2 before they change their behavior. If you make it ZERO tolerance day 1. Then there's no margin for error. There's no discretion used. There's no 'oh we'll fix that with them later'. There is no later. You get 1 shot. You screw it up...buh bye and F you pay me.

You don't get to get a few get out of jail free cards in life, why do you get them when verbally abusing someone? Your boss makes a bad decision can you in the next staff meeting stand up and scream at him call him a joke and question his judgment? Nope you get fired! There's a consequence at work for behaving badly. Make the consequence just as bad at the youth sporting event and people will self correct. It's really psychology 101 stuff.


Well I call my boss a bone head all the time....we both get into bloody screaming matches 1x or 2x a week at least, the secretary completely horrified but after the 1st month just laughs her _ss off all the time know when this happens. (this is going on 5+ years know)....You know why I'm still around? I make my boss money $$$$$$$. In the end...its all about the Benjamins.

Do you really think you are the smartest guy in the room with all the answers?

Yes...it's all about the Benjamins. But if you screaming at people costs ME Benjamins I'm going to make sure you are never around ever again. I will make it my mission to end you and I win...always.

Am I the smartest guy in the room? This room...probably. Because most of y'all are a bunch of grown petulant children. Here's a hint...it's not about YOU. It's about the kids. The kids, your kids...hate you if you're a screaming or someone who makes a scene at games. Know how I know??? I talk to those kids. They all think people who make a scene are idiots.

Two actual conversations with kids during games with parents yelling about stupid things:

Me: Damn that guy's awfully mad.
u12: That's my dad.
Me: Oh...sorry.
u12: I just wish he'd shut up or stay in the car.
Me: Just tune him out and play you're doing great.
u12: Thanks.

---

<dad screaming in stands from opposing team>
Me: He's pretty pissed huh?
u14: yeah <rolls eyes>
Me: Wish parents weren't allowed to be in the rink.
u14: I know right, then we could just play.


I officiate almost 300 games a year. I see more kids, and more stupid parents in a year then you could ever imagine. I listen to the kids. They hate people who behave this way. All of them do, unless it's the kid who's emulating dad. My experience doing my job as an official working as many games as I do, makes me, on this topic, just about the smartest guy in the room.

My stories above...every single official here has dozens of them if not more where the kids are embarrassed at people like you, and your existence at their games.

Here's a tip. If you're not involved in the game in any way shape or form, STFU. It's not about you. Only people who can say anything about the game, the way it's officiated or played...are the players and the officials. Coaches need to STFU too unless you have a legitimate question to ask.

Last tip. Every official in every youth league in every youth sport thinks every single parent who opens their mouths is a friggin joke. If you cannot communicate with your boss using your words, you're a toddler. If you cannot communicate effectively with other adults or children without getting emotional...you're a toddler.

Grow up folks.



And as a final note, if you are an official speaking on an anonymous blog in this manner, you lose all credibility. Your approach to players and parents leads me to believe you may need some time in the penalty box yourself. Take a few deep breathes and get back to us when you are less abusive toward kids and parents.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/17/20 01:29 PM
so says the "petulant child"...lmao...i'm willing to bet (and I'm sure i'm not the only one) that you know as much about wining as you know about fkg...ZERO!!!!!!....all bark and no bite!!!...you are a spineless keyboard gangster with no back bone...you are a jellyfish.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/17/20 02:53 PM
Still not a soul that wants to comment on if the mandatory meeting is worthwhile????
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/17/20 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
So do you eject these parents? If not, you're just adding to the problem.

If I am not the target of the ire of the stupid parent there's nothing I can do.

However, I have ejected parents, as recently as Sunday. I even had the cops on the phone for a guy who was refusing to leave until we made the call. That's called criminal trespass when you've been asked to leave and refuse.

Originally Posted by Anonymous

And as a final note, if you are an official speaking on an anonymous blog in this manner, you lose all credibility. Your approach to players and parents leads me to believe you may need some time in the penalty box yourself. Take a few deep breathes and get back to us when you are less abusive toward kids and parents.

Lose all credibility...to people who have never taken the whistle? Sorry pal...nope. Anyone who has never done the job needs to STFU and sit down. Abusive? Nah...I'm not abusive. I have a great rapport with all the kids I work with and the coaches who are not jerks. Parents...could care less about their opinions. They're spectators. Their opinions don't matter. Ever. There's only one coach who has an issue with me. Wanna know why??? He called my partner a 'joke' then came at us on the ice and had to be restrained by his assistant over a nothing play(his own assistants agreed) and I sent him packing. Every other coach I see who has seen me before knows they're getting a hard working official who is going to do the best job possible, it wont be perfect they wont agree with everything...but I've never once been told I blew the game.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
so says the "petulant child"...lmao...i'm willing to bet (and I'm sure i'm not the only one) that you know as much about wining as you know about fkg...ZERO!!!!!!....all bark and no bite!!!...you are a spineless keyboard gangster with no back bone...you are a jellyfish.

Aww...little boy get his feeling hurt. You'll get over it...nah who we kidding he wont maybe we can get this baby some desitin for his diaper rash.

Keyboard gangster is rich. I walk the walk....I'm the guy who does the job, you must be the other guy? Oh bitch on an anonymous BB tough guy. Grab the whistle. Work some games. Be sure to post your assignments here I'll go to them and make you cry like a little baby.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/17/20 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
So do you eject these parents? If not, you're just adding to the problem.

If I am not the target of the ire of the stupid parent there's nothing I can do.

However, I have ejected parents, as recently as Sunday. I even had the cops on the phone for a guy who was refusing to leave until we made the call. That's called criminal trespass when you've been asked to leave and refuse.

Originally Posted by Anonymous

And as a final note, if you are an official speaking on an anonymous blog in this manner, you lose all credibility. Your approach to players and parents leads me to believe you may need some time in the penalty box yourself. Take a few deep breathes and get back to us when you are less abusive toward kids and parents.

Lose all credibility...to people who have never taken the whistle? Sorry pal...nope. Anyone who has never done the job needs to STFU and sit down. Abusive? Nah...I'm not abusive. I have a great rapport with all the kids I work with and the coaches who are not jerks. Parents...could care less about their opinions. They're spectators. Their opinions don't matter. Ever. There's only one coach who has an issue with me. Wanna know why??? He called my partner a 'joke' then came at us on the ice and had to be restrained by his assistant over a nothing play(his own assistants agreed) and I sent him packing. Every other coach I see who has seen me before knows they're getting a hard working official who is going to do the best job possible, it wont be perfect they wont agree with everything...but I've never once been told I blew the game.

Originally Posted by Anonymous
so says the "petulant child"...lmao...i'm willing to bet (and I'm sure i'm not the only one) that you know as much about wining as you know about fkg...ZERO!!!!!!....all bark and no bite!!!...you are a spineless keyboard gangster with no back bone...you are a jellyfish.

Aww...little boy get his feeling hurt. You'll get over it...nah who we kidding he wont maybe we can get this baby some desitin for his diaper rash.

Keyboard gangster is rich. I walk the walk....I'm the guy who does the job, you must be the other guy? Oh bitch on an anonymous BB tough guy. Grab the whistle. Work some games. Be sure to post your assignments here I'll go to them and make you cry like a little baby.


are you still barking? i swear you sound like the little taco bell dog!!!!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/18/20 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
So do you eject these parents? If not, you're just adding to the problem.

If I am not the target of the ire of the stupid parent there's nothing I can do.

So your idea of $1k penalty wouldn't help in that situation would it? The parents would STILL be yelling at the kids.

I appreciate where you're coming from and I think your idea has some merit, but I think it goes too far. Each club should track parent ejections. 2nd one in a season? $250 fine. 3rd one? $500 fine. AND your child can't play until the fine is paid (starting w/2nd ejection), AND on the third, you're banned from attending any matches for the rest of the season. If you show up at a match after that, your child is off the team and you forfeit everything you've paid (assessments, etc).
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/19/20 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Still not a soul that wants to comment on if the mandatory meeting is worthwhile????


Regardless whether or not its worthwhile you still need to attend.
Posted By: Cross It 4 Fun Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/19/20 10:40 PM
In a town in Massachusetts they banned cheering of any kind positive or negative.. ..you are not allowed to yell/cheer. Due to an obnoxious aggressive parent who attacked a ref. Patents must sit there quietly, they start yelling one warning then match is suspended

I have to say I am starting to think its the way to go....?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/20/20 02:02 PM
Originally Posted by Cross It 4 Fun
In a town in Massachusetts they banned cheering of any kind positive or negative.. ..you are not allowed to yell/cheer. Due to an obnoxious aggressive parent who attacked a ref. Patents must sit there quietly, they start yelling one warning then match is suspended

I have to say I am starting to think its the way to go....?


A referee was punched by a parent at a GU9 game on LI this past fall. I'd have no objection to parents having to sit quietly as I can't stand the stupidity I hear every weekend as a coach for one son and a spectator on the other son.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/21/20 12:25 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Cross It 4 Fun
In a town in Massachusetts they banned cheering of any kind positive or negative.. ..you are not allowed to yell/cheer. Due to an obnoxious aggressive parent who attacked a ref. Patents must sit there quietly, they start yelling one warning then match is suspended

I have to say I am starting to think its the way to go....?


A referee was punched by a parent at a GU9 game on LI this past fall. I'd have no objection to parents having to sit quietly as I can't stand the stupidity I hear every weekend as a coach for one son and a spectator on the other son.



No cheering or jeering on your part can change the thoughts and reaction of a parent who attacks a ref. Do you believe a rule of this nature could stop an idiot like that? We have rules that are supposed to prevent physical assaults, they are not youth sports rules, but rather the laws of society.
Posted By: Cross It 4 Fun Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/21/20 01:07 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Cross It 4 Fun
In a town in Massachusetts they banned cheering of any kind positive or negative.. ..you are not allowed to yell/cheer. Due to an obnoxious aggressive parent who attacked a ref. Patents must sit there quietly, they start yelling one warning then match is suspended

I have to say I am starting to think its the way to go....?


A referee was punched by a parent at a GU9 game on LI this past fall. I'd have no objection to parents having to sit quietly as I can't stand the stupidity I hear every weekend as a coach for one son and a spectator on the other son.



No cheering or jeering on your part can change the thoughts and reaction of a parent who attacks a ref. Do you believe a rule of this nature could stop an idiot like that? We have rules that are supposed to prevent physical assaults, they are not youth sports rules, but rather the laws of society.


Thats a fair point and Inshould have expanded my response to say the but the no jeer no cheer rule will stop the over the top comments directed toward refs and the youth players....
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/21/20 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Cross It 4 Fun
In a town in Massachusetts they banned cheering of any kind positive or negative.. ..you are not allowed to yell/cheer. Due to an obnoxious aggressive parent who attacked a ref. Patents must sit there quietly, they start yelling one warning then match is suspended

I have to say I am starting to think its the way to go....?


A referee was punched by a parent at a GU9 game on LI this past fall. I'd have no objection to parents having to sit quietly as I can't stand the stupidity I hear every weekend as a coach for one son and a spectator on the other son.



No cheering or jeering on your part can change the thoughts and reaction of a parent who attacks a ref. Do you believe a rule of this nature could stop an idiot like that? We have rules that are supposed to prevent physical assaults, they are not youth sports rules, but rather the laws of society.


Where I disagree with you is the clubs where incidents like this happen do not enforce any sort or parental or player code of conduct. I guarantee this person has misbehaved badly before and the coach and the club have no cojones to do anything about it. Sorry no excuse. In my club we've suspended and banned parents for their sideline antics. Nip this sh** in the bud before it gets out of control I say. Player or parent can't handle code of conduct too bad, buh bye zeros!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/21/20 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Cross It 4 Fun
In a town in Massachusetts they banned cheering of any kind positive or negative.. ..you are not allowed to yell/cheer. Due to an obnoxious aggressive parent who attacked a ref. Patents must sit there quietly, they start yelling one warning then match is suspended

I have to say I am starting to think its the way to go....?


A referee was punched by a parent at a GU9 game on LI this past fall. I'd have no objection to parents having to sit quietly as I can't stand the stupidity I hear every weekend as a coach for one son and a spectator on the other son.



No cheering or jeering on your part can change the thoughts and reaction of a parent who attacks a ref. Do you believe a rule of this nature could stop an idiot like that? We have rules that are supposed to prevent physical assaults, they are not youth sports rules, but rather the laws of society.


Where I disagree with you is the clubs where incidents like this happen do not enforce any sort or parental or player code of conduct. I guarantee this person has misbehaved badly before and the coach and the club have no cojones to do anything about it. Sorry no excuse. In my club we've suspended and banned parents for their sideline antics. Nip this sh** in the bud before it gets out of control I say. Player or parent can't handle code of conduct too bad, buh bye zeros!



Totally agree with club maintaining control but I don’t believe you can control an unstable individual. I witnessed an incident like this once with a parent going after a coach after a match. Nothing prior would have ever indicated this parent would do this.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/21/20 02:41 PM
lirrref....i was thinking of you this weekend.

durring my kids game i overheard parents yelling from both sides quite loud...maybe the elderly (i think maybe he was late 60s early 70s) ref blew some calls but he was definitely being fair....I'm thinking how cool this guy is, hes just ignoring everybody and just doing the best he can do.

Upon closer examination i noticed the elderly referee has a hearing aid!!!! (this guy probably cant hear a damn thing anyway)!!!!!! So, in summary....ear plugs DO WORK....get yourself a pair...and stop acting like a spoiled little brat snowflake.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/21/20 02:53 PM
Totally agree with club maintaining control but I don’t believe you can control an unstable individual. I witnessed an incident like this once with a parent going after a coach after a match. Nothing prior would have ever indicated this parent would do this.

Agreed but the majority of bad apples are well known to the clubs. When clubs really instill standards the behavior will improve among players and spectators. This must start at an early age too. Better behavior will absolutely attract new referees. I wouldn't tolerate some wacko person in my job treating me like s**t, so why would anyone want to subject themselves to that on the sports field?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/21/20 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Totally agree with club maintaining control but I don’t believe you can control an unstable individual. I witnessed an incident like this once with a parent going after a coach after a match. Nothing prior would have ever indicated this parent would do this.

Agreed but the majority of bad apples are well known to the clubs. When clubs really instill standards the behavior will improve among players and spectators. This must start at an early age too. Better behavior will absolutely attract new referees. I wouldn't tolerate some wacko person in my job treating me like s**t, so why would anyone want to subject themselves to that on the sports field?



Real good points. As a parent i found that i said even less each year as my kid aged and I understood the game better. Also found a way to keep myself in check. I made a point to stand by parents of the opposing team, it forced me to be more couteous and also made them think twice before being overly zealous around opposing player parent. Mixed seating might he a solution.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/21/20 03:46 PM
This is all so embarrassing. Very similer to parents yelling at their 10 year old "if he pushes you push him back if the ref isn't going to call it."

I don't care if the referee is BLIND, tell and teach your kids to play the right way and parents should behave the right way. ALWAYS! end of story
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/21/20 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
This is all so embarrassing. Very similer to parents yelling at their 10 year old "if he pushes you push him back if the ref isn't going to call it."

I don't care if the referee is BLIND, tell and teach your kids to play the right way and parents should behave "the right way". ALWAYS! end of story



I watch plenty of European Soccer on tv!!!! There is plenty of "pushing" are you saying the Europeans don't play the right way?

My oldest plays at U16 on a pretty good fkg team...there is pushing going on all the time...do they not play "the right way" either?

In Summary, Let the kids Play, let the coach Coach and let the Referee Ref....most importantly stop coming onto botn and post dumb_ss comments....end of story!!!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/21/20 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
This is all so embarrassing. Very similer to parents yelling at their 10 year old "if he pushes you push him back if the ref isn't going to call it."

I don't care if the referee is BLIND, tell and teach your kids to play the right way and parents should behave "the right way". ALWAYS! end of story



I watch plenty of European Soccer on tv!!!! There is plenty of "pushing" are you saying the Europeans don't play the right way?

My oldest plays at U16 on a pretty good fkg team...there is pushing going on all the time...do they not play "the right way" either?

In Summary, Let the kids Play, let the coach Coach and let the Referee Ref....most importantly stop coming onto botn and post dumb_ss comments....end of story!!!


You watch 10 year olds from Europe on TV? I think the previous post was merely stating the stupidity of parents telling a 10 year old "if he pushes you, you push him back". That's not educating the kid about soccer, just retaliation. Let the coach of the team teach the kids to play aggressively, clean and hard. I've taught my teams how to do so.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/21/20 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
This is all so embarrassing. Very similer to parents yelling at their 10 year old "if he pushes you push him back if the ref isn't going to call it."

I don't care if the referee is BLIND, tell and teach your kids to play the right way and parents should behave "the right way". ALWAYS! end of story



I watch plenty of European Soccer on tv!!!! There is plenty of "pushing" are you saying the Europeans don't play the right way?

My oldest plays at U16 on a pretty good fkg team...there is pushing going on all the time...do they not play "the right way" either?

In Summary, Let the kids Play, let the coach Coach and let the Referee Ref....most importantly stop coming onto botn and post dumb_ss comments....end of story!!!


Lighten up Francis. Kids should play, coaches coach, refs ref and parents STFU. The right way to play is clean, hard and aggressive.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/21/20 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
This is all so embarrassing. Very similer to parents yelling at their 10 year old "if he pushes you push him back if the ref isn't going to call it."

I don't care if the referee is BLIND, tell and teach your kids to play the right way and parents should behave "the right way". ALWAYS! end of story



I watch plenty of European Soccer on tv!!!! There is plenty of "pushing" are you saying the Europeans don't play the right way?

My oldest plays at U16 on a pretty good fkg team...there is pushing going on all the time...do they not play "the right way" either?

In Summary, Let the kids Play, let the coach Coach and let the Referee Ref....most importantly stop coming onto botn and post dumb_ss comments....end of story!!!


You watch 10 year olds from Europe on TV? I think the previous post was merely stating the stupidity of parents telling a 10 year old "if he pushes you, you push him back". That's not educating the kid about soccer, just retaliation. Let the coach of the team teach the kids to play aggressively, clean and hard. I've taught my teams how to do so.


We use soccer (and other activities) as a tool to teach kids about life lessons right? Whats wrong with standing up for yourself? Whats wrong with showing bully's that you are ready, willing and able to dish it out and take it as well? All you soccer parents are all just precious snowflakes...and your wimp kids will turn out just like you.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/21/20 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
This is all so embarrassing. Very similer to parents yelling at their 10 year old "if he pushes you push him back if the ref isn't going to call it."

I don't care if the referee is BLIND, tell and teach your kids to play the right way and parents should behave "the right way". ALWAYS! end of story



I watch plenty of European Soccer on tv!!!! There is plenty of "pushing" are you saying the Europeans don't play the right way?

My oldest plays at U16 on a pretty good fkg team...there is pushing going on all the time...do they not play "the right way" either?

In Summary, Let the kids Play, let the coach Coach and let the Referee Ref....most importantly stop coming onto botn and post dumb_ss comments....end of story!!!


You watch 10 year olds from Europe on TV? I think the previous post was merely stating the stupidity of parents telling a 10 year old "if he pushes you, you push him back". That's not educating the kid about soccer, just retaliation. Let the coach of the team teach the kids to play aggressively, clean and hard. I've taught my teams how to do so.


We use soccer (and other activities) as a tool to teach kids about life lessons right? Whats wrong with standing up for yourself? Whats wrong with showing bully's that you are ready, willing and able to dish it out and take it as well? All you soccer parents are all just precious snowflakes...and your wimp kids will turn out just like you.



Retaliation in sports is an insult to your teammates, your stupidity affects the whole team. Takes a much bigger and better person to resist, plenty of ways to overcome by playing within the laws of the game. No snowflake here just a parent with a level head. save the snowflake rhetoric for politics.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/22/20 12:23 AM
A football⚽️ . A football on crack🏈.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/22/20 02:04 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
This is all so embarrassing. Very similer to parents yelling at their 10 year old "if he pushes you push him back if the ref isn't going to call it."

I don't care if the referee is BLIND, tell and teach your kids to play the right way and parents should behave "the right way". ALWAYS! end of story



I watch plenty of European Soccer on tv!!!! There is plenty of "pushing" are you saying the Europeans don't play the right way?

My oldest plays at U16 on a pretty good fkg team...there is pushing going on all the time...do they not play "the right way" either?

In Summary, Let the kids Play, let the coach Coach and let the Referee Ref....most importantly stop coming onto botn and post dumb_ss comments....end of story!!!


You watch 10 year olds from Europe on TV? I think the previous post was merely stating the stupidity of parents telling a 10 year old "if he pushes you, you push him back". That's not educating the kid about soccer, just retaliation. Let the coach of the team teach the kids to play aggressively, clean and hard. I've taught my teams how to do so.


We use soccer (and other activities) as a tool to teach kids about life lessons right? Whats wrong with standing up for yourself? Whats wrong with showing bully's that you are ready, willing and able to dish it out and take it as well? All you soccer parents are all just precious snowflakes...and your wimp kids will turn out just like you.



Retaliation in sports is an insult to your teammates, your stupidity affects the whole team. Takes a much bigger and better person to resist, plenty of ways to overcome by playing within the laws of the game. No snowflake here just a parent with a level head. save the snowflake rhetoric for politics.


Soccer takes a lot of discipline and retaliation is just about losing your cool. Here’s how a referee deals with retaliation:
One player clearly kicks a player and the referee blows the whistle as he gets close to the player that kicked his opponent the “kickee” decides to push the fouler. Here’s a yellow card for you and another for retaliation and both are for unsporting behavior.
If you allow players to take “justice” in their own hands it will soon become an uncontrollable melee. Snuff it out immediately and it shows that the only judge, prosecutor and sheriff is the CR on the field not a lawless free for all of vigilante justice.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/22/20 01:57 PM
hold on there snowflake...the original issue here was strictly "pushing" (which happens all the time at all levels, we all know this)....if there referee is letting it go, then he lets it go....If you don't learn to be physical back you will be eaten up...period!!!!.

Now all you wimps and crybabies have escalated this to punching and kicking to try and save a win for your BullSh_t argument? gtfoh!!!! you are now in the "NO SPIN ZONE"!!!!!! snowflake.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/22/20 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
hold on there snowflake...the original issue here was strictly "pushing" (which happens all the time at all levels, we all know this)....if there referee is letting it go, then he lets it go....If you don't learn to be physical back you will be eaten up...period!!!!.

Now all you wimps and crybabies have escalated this to punching and kicking to try and save a win for your BullSh_t argument? gtfoh!!!! you are now in the "NO SPIN ZONE"!!!!!! snowflake.


You watch too much TV and listen to radio 770 too often. Pay more attention to your kid on soccer field. Maybe you’ll understand what the game is about.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/22/20 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
hold on there snowflake...the original issue here was strictly "pushing" (which happens all the time at all levels, we all know this)....if there referee is letting it go, then he lets it go....If you don't learn to be physical back you will be eaten up...period!!!!.

Now all you wimps and crybabies have escalated this to punching and kicking to try and save a win for your BullSh_t argument? gtfoh!!!! you are now in the "NO SPIN ZONE"!!!!!! snowflake.


You watch too much TV and listen to radio 770 too often. Pay more attention to your kid on soccer field. Maybe you’ll understand what the game is about.


ah yes the EXPERT LI soccer parent has spoken!!!!!! please enlighten us on what the game is about!!!!!
(FYI, you are still in the "NO SPIN ZONE" buttercup.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/22/20 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
hold on there snowflake...the original issue here was strictly "pushing" (which happens all the time at all levels, we all know this)....if there referee is letting it go, then he lets it go....If you don't learn to be physical back you will be eaten up...period!!!!.

Now all you wimps and crybabies have escalated this to punching and kicking to try and save a win for your BullSh_t argument? gtfoh!!!! you are now in the "NO SPIN ZONE"!!!!!! snowflake.


You watch too much TV and listen to radio 770 too often. Pay more attention to your kid on soccer field. Maybe you’ll understand what the game is about.


ah yes the EXPERT LI soccer parent has spoken!!!!!! please enlighten us on what the game is about!!!!!
(FYI, you are still in the "NO SPIN ZONE" buttercup.


Please share your expertise with us all Mr No Spin Zone. Other than an ability to name call everyone; buttercup, snowflake, crybaby and wimp, you show no understanding of soccer and display more of a lack of intelligence than an actual possession of intelligence. We will all be waiting for an articulate response.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/22/20 10:07 PM
well i asked YOU to enlighten us all first so go ahead, but you haven't..... Obviously you are not capable of following directions so You attempt to "spin" the argument...you still lose amigo, you still lose.

you will continue to be called "buttercup", "snowflake", "crybaby" and "wimp". since you continue to cry on the pitch yelling at the referee that the opposing player was "too rough" on your precious "soccer superstar"....In actuality all you are doing is raising a little B_tch when you should be raising a man.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/23/20 01:26 AM
OK let’s try to stay on track and get back to the crux of the matter-referee shortage and solutions?

I will say that so many posts on here are just adding to the evidence that our youth soccer experience can be quite challenging for referees to deal with. So are we capable of moving on?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/23/20 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
well i asked YOU to enlighten us all first so go ahead, but you haven't..... Obviously you are not capable of following directions so You attempt to "spin" the argument...you still lose amigo, you still lose.

you will continue to be called "buttercup", "snowflake", "crybaby" and "wimp". since you continue to cry on the pitch yelling at the referee that the opposing player was "too rough" on your precious "soccer superstar"....In actuality all you are doing is raising a little B_tch when you should be raising a man.



Funny since my kid is a D1 Women’s Soccer players, benchs 160, Squats 340, runs a 10:30 two mile, plays center back and weighs 125 at 5’9”. Pretty sure she would kick you ass the legnth of the soccer field yet has never been yellow carded. On the other hand your litlle tough guy will probably end up like you, wearing thong panties under his manly clothes. On the weekend the 2 of you will hit the same BD clubs looking for some action. Don’t worry your wife and his mom won’t care, she’s already moved on to his former soccer trainer.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/23/20 05:14 PM
[quote=Anonymous]well i asked YOU to enlighten us all first so go ahead, but you haven't..... Obviously you are not capable of following directions so You attempt to "spin" the argument...you still lose amigo, you still lose.

you will continue to be called "buttercup", "snowflake", "crybaby" and "wimp". since you continue to cry on the pitch yelling at the referee that the opposing player was "too rough" on your precious "soccer superstar"....In actuality all you are doing is raising a little B_tch when you should be raising a man.

/quote]

Thank you for proving my point about your lack of intelligence. So let me enlighten you to a few facts:
1. I did not make the original post so your were calling someone else names. I commented on your post because your immature name calling and sarcastically called someone "Expert LI" soccer parent yet you offer no expertise yourself which makes you a fake, phony fraud in the first place
2. Because a coach or parent does not teach their child to play dirty, does not make them a buttercup, snowflake or one of your other pet names. Their kid may in fact be way tougher that your dirtbag kid, they just don't play dirty to get away with everything they can. Unskilled and unintelligent players do that
3. I don't follow directions, I'm a Dom not a sub as you most likely are. You just this forum to express your self as a tough guy but we all can see through the veil on that
4. In closing you'll notice I have not resorted to name calling to make my point. The worst I've done is say your unintelligent, which by your previous response, has proven me correct
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/23/20 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
OK let’s try to stay on track and get back to the crux of the matter-referee shortage and solutions?

I will say that so many posts on here are just adding to the evidence that our youth soccer experience can be quite challenging for referees to deal with. So are we capable of moving on?


So many of these posts prove that the by far the biggest problem in youth sports are the parents (spectators and coaches alike) themselves and it is not unique to soccer. Baseball, Football, Volleyball, Hockey, etc all suffer similar problems. Youth sports in general needs to weed out the parents/coaches who cannot conduct themselves in a sportsmanlike manner. I've coached for many years and have had my teams have horrid referees but I've never resorted to threats or had one single parent of a child I've coached get removed from a field for their behavior. Why, because up front I set the standard of I coach, your kid plays, the ref refs the game, you cheer. I won't tolerate any crap. I will handle the refs if anything needs to be said but I do it right. I'd think you would have more up and coming referees to fill the needs of the sport if it wasn't such a thankless job. There are young men and women refs (AR's & CR's) who love the sport but won't stick with it if they are abused by adults and players week in and week out. Clubs and Academies need to set the standards for behavior and not tolerate unsportsmanlike conduct, period! As for referees, the coaches need to make their reports each week after a game and stop whining that "nothing changes". Yes nothing changes because you don't do your job and report legitimate issues with referees. How can the Referees Association make improvements to their personnel if they don't know whats broken?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/23/20 08:29 PM
A football⚽️, A football Wif 15 pints of cider🏈
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/23/20 08:57 PM
The current assigning and training refs on LI is from the stone ages. Its a tough job to ref. Everything else should be made as easy as possible for them to retain as many as possible
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/24/20 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
[quote=Anonymous]well i asked YOU to enlighten us all first so go ahead, but you haven't..... Obviously you are not capable of following directions so You attempt to "spin" the argument...you still lose amigo, you still lose.

you will continue to be called "buttercup", "snowflake", "crybaby" and "wimp". since you continue to cry on the pitch yelling at the referee that the opposing player was "too rough" on your precious "soccer superstar"....In actuality all you are doing is raising a little B_tch when you should be raising a man.

/quote]

Thank you for proving my point about your lack of intelligence. So let me enlighten you to a few facts:
1. I did not make the original post so your were calling someone else names. I commented on your post because your immature name calling and sarcastically called someone "Expert LI" soccer parent yet you offer no expertise yourself which makes you a fake, phony fraud in the first place
2. Because a coach or parent does not teach their child to play dirty, does not make them a buttercup, snowflake or one of your other pet names. Their kid may in fact be way tougher that your dirtbag kid, they just don't play dirty to get away with everything they can. Unskilled and unintelligent players do that
3. I don't follow directions, I'm a Dom not a sub as you most likely are. You just this forum to express your self as a tough guy but we all can see through the veil on that
4. In closing you'll notice I have not resorted to name calling to make my point. The worst I've done is say your unintelligent, which by your previous response, has proven me correct



look dumb_ss Dom, your crying and moaning about "name calling" is not exactly helping your case....The fact that YOU brought up the term "playing dirty" (no body else has, only you). It is Obvious now that anyone who plays tough and aggressive in your eyes is playing dirty.

So what is your definition of Playing Dirty? Pushing, Shoving, and trying to establish dominant position to win the ball IS NOT "playing dirty" it is called FUTBALL!!!!! you are such an uninformed precious snow flake....have you ever watched a south american game? (they are always on tv you should watch, they are rough, tough extremely physical games)

"Playing dirty" is cheap shot punch or kick to an opposing player when the referee is not looking.

In summary, you can cry about this and that and the sticks and stones and name calling breaks your bones...the reality is you are an unintelligent little p_ssy. suck it up buttercup. Soccer and/or FUTBALL is a contact activity.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/24/20 02:14 PM
I don't understand why people put a U in football, WTF
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/24/20 02:38 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
[quote=Anonymous]well i asked YOU to enlighten us all first so go ahead, but you haven't..... Obviously you are not capable of following directions so You attempt to "spin" the argument...you still lose amigo, you still lose.

you will continue to be called "buttercup", "snowflake", "crybaby" and "wimp". since you continue to cry on the pitch yelling at the referee that the opposing player was "too rough" on your precious "soccer superstar"....In actuality all you are doing is raising a little B_tch when you should be raising a man.

/quote]

Thank you for proving my point about your lack of intelligence. So let me enlighten you to a few facts:
1. I did not make the original post so your were calling someone else names. I commented on your post because your immature name calling and sarcastically called someone "Expert LI" soccer parent yet you offer no expertise yourself which makes you a fake, phony fraud in the first place
2. Because a coach or parent does not teach their child to play dirty, does not make them a buttercup, snowflake or one of your other pet names. Their kid may in fact be way tougher that your dirtbag kid, they just don't play dirty to get away with everything they can. Unskilled and unintelligent players do that
3. I don't follow directions, I'm a Dom not a sub as you most likely are. You just this forum to express your self as a tough guy but we all can see through the veil on that
4. In closing you'll notice I have not resorted to name calling to make my point. The worst I've done is say your unintelligent, which by your previous response, has proven me correct



look dumb_ss Dom, your crying and moaning about "name calling" is not exactly helping your case....The fact that YOU brought up the term "playing dirty" (no body else has, only you). It is Obvious now that anyone who plays tough and aggressive in your eyes is playing dirty.

So what is your definition of Playing Dirty? Pushing, Shoving, and trying to establish dominant position to win the ball IS NOT "playing dirty" it is called FUTBALL!!!!! you are such an uninformed precious snow flake....have you ever watched a south american game? (they are always on tv you should watch, they are rough, tough extremely physical games)

"Playing dirty" is cheap shot punch or kick to an opposing player when the referee is not looking.

In summary, you can cry about this and that and the sticks and stones and name calling breaks your bones...the reality is you are an unintelligent little p_ssy. suck it up buttercup. Soccer and/or FUTBALL is a contact activity.


Big difference between playing tough and playing dirty. Any real soccer player, coach and parent knows that. If your son/daughter is the tough but clean player, then your doing it right and that is my type of player. And yes, tough means lots of contact and physical play. I teach it and encourage it. Where I draw the line in the sand is dirty play; i.e. tackling studs up, elbows to the face, punches when ref isn't looking. If your kids are the dirty type, then sorry but that type of win at all costs type of player has no place in the game or any other sport. As you get to more elite levels coaches see that and they don't want dirty players because they end up hurting the team more than helping them. Have a nice day little man.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/24/20 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
[quote=Anonymous]well i asked YOU to enlighten us all first so go ahead, but you haven't..... Obviously you are not capable of following directions so You attempt to "spin" the argument...you still lose amigo, you still lose.

you will continue to be called "buttercup", "snowflake", "crybaby" and "wimp". since you continue to cry on the pitch yelling at the referee that the opposing player was "too rough" on your precious "soccer superstar"....In actuality all you are doing is raising a little B_tch when you should be raising a man.

/quote]

Thank you for proving my point about your lack of intelligence. So let me enlighten you to a few facts:
1. I did not make the original post so your were calling someone else names. I commented on your post because your immature name calling and sarcastically called someone "Expert LI" soccer parent yet you offer no expertise yourself which makes you a fake, phony fraud in the first place
2. Because a coach or parent does not teach their child to play dirty, does not make them a buttercup, snowflake or one of your other pet names. Their kid may in fact be way tougher that your dirtbag kid, they just don't play dirty to get away with everything they can. Unskilled and unintelligent players do that
3. I don't follow directions, I'm a Dom not a sub as you most likely are. You just this forum to express your self as a tough guy but we all can see through the veil on that
4. In closing you'll notice I have not resorted to name calling to make my point. The worst I've done is say your unintelligent, which by your previous response, has proven me correct



look dumb_ss Dom, your crying and moaning about "name calling" is not exactly helping your case....The fact that YOU brought up the term "playing dirty" (no body else has, only you). It is Obvious now that anyone who plays tough and aggressive in your eyes is playing dirty.

So what is your definition of Playing Dirty? Pushing, Shoving, and trying to establish dominant position to win the ball IS NOT "playing dirty" it is called FUTBALL!!!!! you are such an uninformed precious snow flake....have you ever watched a south american game? (they are always on tv you should watch, they are rough, tough extremely physical games)

"Playing dirty" is cheap shot punch or kick to an opposing player when the referee is not looking.

In summary, you can cry about this and that and the sticks and stones and name calling breaks your bones...the reality is you are an unintelligent little p_ssy. suck it up buttercup. Soccer and/or FUTBALL is a contact activity.


Big difference between playing tough and playing dirty. Any real soccer player, coach and parent knows that. If your son/daughter is the tough but clean player, then your doing it right and that is my type of player. And yes, tough means lots of contact and physical play. I teach it and encourage it. Where I draw the line in the sand is dirty play; i.e. tackling studs up, elbows to the face, punches when ref isn't looking. If your kids are the dirty type, then sorry but that type of win at all costs type of player has no place in the game or any other sport. As you get to more elite levels coaches see that and they don't want dirty players because they end up hurting the team more than helping them. Have a nice day little man.


If you are correct so then why is it that in elite levels players "tackling studs up, elbows to the face, punches when ref isn't looking" If you are correct then why is it that Louis Suarez is still playing even though he has a history of biting people? (there are many many many examples but he comes to mind right now.

YOU say "coaches see that and they don't want dirty players" but obviously it is tolerated, its obviously tolerated on all levels.....So once again, Let the players be themselves and play the game, let the coach do his job, let the referee do job.

You are a typical LI soccer parent with all the answers so you will continue with your BS rhetoric as well i'm sure.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/24/20 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I don't understand why people put a U in football, WTF


Its called SPANGLISH dumb_ss!!!! lol
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/24/20 03:53 PM
Why we speaking Spanish, ....head🌝
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/24/20 04:23 PM
If you are correct so then why is it that in elite levels players "tackling studs up, elbows to the face, punches when ref isn't looking" If you are correct then why is it that Louis Suarez is still playing even though he has a history of biting people? (there are many many many examples but he comes to mind right now.

YOU say "coaches see that and they don't want dirty players" but obviously it is tolerated, its obviously tolerated on all levels.....So once again, Let the players be themselves and play the game, let the coach do his job, let the referee do job.

You are a typical LI soccer parent with all the answers so you will continue with your BS rhetoric as well i'm sure.[/quote]

I am talking about all players elite and some not among the children we have playing soccer on LI, not pros. This particular thread is about LI Referee issues so I don't care nor have any influence on professional sports. And if I'm not mistaken, Suarez was suspended and fined for his actions. Also had to get counseling too. Hasn't had any recent incidents has he? I can tell you with 100% certainty that many clubs, two in which my sons play, do not teach, tolerate nor advocate dirty play because that hurts them team. Play dirty and your off the field. No I don't have all the answers but I also don't turn a blind eye to serious issues with the game in which your kids and mine play. You seem to accept the garbage because it is what it is. Do you sit on the board of any club or academy that has to deal with player, parent and referee issues? Do you attend arbitration hearings to deal with such matters? Probably not because your so busy putting others down. Play clean, play really hard, respect the referees and the game. Have a good day.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/24/20 08:15 PM
Yeah and make sure your speaking Spanglish when you pronounce saaaaaaaaarkre lol
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/24/20 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Yeah and make sure your speaking Spanglish when you pronounce saaaaaaaaarkre lol


i thought that was maybe Russian or Ruslngish? lol
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/28/20 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/28/20 01:59 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/28/20 06:38 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.


How do they not have to do more work when the volunteer isn't allowed to make all the calls a real AR can?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/28/20 12:44 PM
Word on the street is there are only a third of the refs registered as this time last year. Now you have to do a lot more to be certified, so I hear a lot of them are not bothering, and who can blame them, they have to jump through hoops just to go on the pitch and get abused, get the f... Outer here.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/28/20 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Word on the street is there are only a third of the refs registered as this time last year. Now you have to do a lot more to be certified, so I hear a lot of them are not bothering, and who can blame them, they have to jump through hoops just to go on the pitch and get abused, get the f... Outer here.


wear ear plugs while refereeing...problem solved.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/28/20 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.


Not that it's a huge issue here but you miss the point that when there are no ARs on a full size field, the ref has to call offside at both ends from a difficult angle, even if he/she is keeping up with the play and also direction on throw ins without assistance. It's usually obvious when the ball has gone out for a throw, the ref does not need parents running the line, they typically make more mistakes than good calls, so best to go without - but having no professionals, even 13 year old kids to stay in line with the second last defender (or the ball if it's behind them) and call direction when they are right next to the play, makes it really tough to call a perfect game. The risk is definitely more crap from the sideline. No biggie with the money but don't say it's the same game, far from it.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/28/20 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.


The issue is that the referee who did not show will not get paid. So now You are paying for a service you did not receive (You pay for 3 no matter what) so where does the $$$$ go?

Its like a BS Union Rule designed to cheat a paying customer.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/28/20 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.


The issue is that the referee who did not show will not get paid. So now You are paying for a service you did not receive (You pay for 3 no matter what) so where does the $$$$ go?

Its like a BS Union Rule designed to cheat a paying customer.


While I have never had a CR no show there have been times where an AR was missing. The CR has always returned the fee for the AR to me and the opposing team. No show, no pay.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/28/20 08:03 PM
BS - CR cant join after the start of the game. Whoever starts in the middle must finish in the middle. And no 2 person team has taken the money for 3 people if they are an AR short
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/29/20 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.


The issue is that the referee who did not show will not get paid. So now You are paying for a service you did not receive (You pay for 3 no matter what) so where does the $$$$ go?

Its like a BS Union Rule designed to cheat a paying customer.


While I have never had a CR no show there have been times where an AR was missing. The CR has always returned the fee for the AR to me and the opposing team. No show, no pay.


Exactly, why pay for a service you do not receive! If a referee does not show up, DO NOT PAY FOR THAT ABSENT referee!! Referees are not allowed to collect money for colleagues that have not shown up!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/29/20 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.


The issue is that the referee who did not show will not get paid. So now You are paying for a service you did not receive (You pay for 3 no matter what) so where does the $$$$ go?

Its like a BS Union Rule designed to cheat a paying customer.


That's fine. Just don't expect the 2 refs to perform extra services that they're not getting paid for to cover for your failing to make a good enough offer to reliably get 3 refs.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/29/20 03:40 PM
the 2 refs that did show will do the best job they can with the resources they have, can't ask for anything more or less.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/29/20 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.


The issue is that the referee who did not show will not get paid. So now You are paying for a service you did not receive (You pay for 3 no matter what) so where does the $$$$ go?

Its like a BS Union Rule designed to cheat a paying customer.


That's fine. Just don't expect the 2 refs to perform extra services that they're not getting paid for to cover for your failing to make a good enough offer to reliably get 3 refs.



What extra service can we expect if we paid for all 3 ? Clean up after match? Direct traffic in parking lot? Take it up with your assignor or the 3rd ref who didn’t show. I certainly would if I were you.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/29/20 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous

Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.


The issue is that the referee who did not show will not get paid. So now You are paying for a service you did not receive (You pay for 3 no matter what) so where does the $$$$ go?

Its like a BS Union Rule designed to cheat a paying customer.


That's fine. Just don't expect the 2 refs to perform extra services that they're not getting paid for to cover for your failing to make a good enough offer to reliably get 3 refs.



What extra service can we expect if we paid for all 3 ? Clean up after match? Direct traffic in parking lot? Take it up with your assignor or the 3rd ref who didn’t show. I certainly would if I were you.[/quote]

All the calls the other AR would have been making. All while you’ll be screaming “you would have gotten that if you had three refs” even if the ref got them all right because he’s a tryhard who ran enough for 2 people. Next time, you can just have a full refund before the game and try again another day.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/29/20 11:37 PM
You scumbag coaches and parents don't get it still. You are lucky to have any refs, with the way you treat them, go try riffing yourself and you'll see.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/30/20 12:59 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You scumbag coaches and parents don't get it still. You are lucky to have any refs, with the way you treat them, go try riffing yourself and you'll see.



Hey Boss, Harvey didn’t show up for work today, Karen and I had to cover him for 90 minutes. Will you pay us his salary today? Sure Tom, you can pick the extra check in Human Resources after you finish your exit interview.
Posted By: Larry Miller Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/30/20 02:27 AM
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/30/20 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You scumbag coaches and parents don't get it still. You are lucky to have any refs, with the way you treat them, go try riffing yourself and you'll see.



Hey Boss, Harvey didn’t show up for work today, Karen and I had to cover him for 90 minutes. Will you pay us his salary today? Sure Tom, you can pick the extra check in Human Resources after you finish your exit interview.



ROASTED!!!!!! smile
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/30/20 03:25 PM
What a sorry state of affairs we have reached when LI Ref puts out a perfectly reasonable question asking how we can help with the ref shortage and the thread morphs into an open state of hostilities between two entrenched camps. It's pathetic and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. How about this answer: stop elevating day-to-day games into anything that seems to matter. Having a ref seems to make parents feel empowered to complain on the sideline but games under U11 really don't need a grown man in a uniform running around after the kids and nothing under U13 should need ARs. There will be a further shortage of ARs this year as many of them can't be bothered to pay $70 and sit through four hours of Lee Suckle pontificating so they can pick up $33 a few times this season while being abused by parents, rained on, or burnt to a crisp. It's easier to work in the local supermarket. So things are going to get worse. There are way too many games that call for officials and I am betting that if the kids scrimmaged and self-reffed, like they do in the park (for those of you that let your kids play pick-up) you'd have a fraction of the issues you have now. It's not really essential that these youngsters' games are played like the world cup final, it's rec ball, so the odd missed offside isn't going to make any difference. As for the refs keeping kids safe, my experience has been that kids and adults too, play cleaner and respect each other more when there is no ref. They get on with it and play for the love of the game. All of this stems from we parents spoiling our kids and making them think any of this matters outside our own egos.

Sorry, LI Ref, I don't think you are going to get any more refs, ENY Referees are not trying hard enough to recruit and as for LISRA? Less said the better. Giving Cathy Caldwell referee of the year is an incentive to all the other hard working refs out there? Fewer games, leagues and teams would be a start and failing that, cut down on the wasted and stretched resources.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/30/20 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
What a sorry state of affairs we have reached when LI Ref puts out a perfectly reasonable question asking how we can help with the ref shortage and the thread morphs into an open state of hostilities between two entrenched camps. It's pathetic and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. How about this answer: stop elevating day-to-day games into anything that seems to matter. Having a ref seems to make parents feel empowered to complain on the sideline but games under U11 really don't need a grown man in a uniform running around after the kids and nothing under U13 should need ARs. There will be a further shortage of ARs this year as many of them can't be bothered to pay $70 and sit through four hours of Lee Suckle pontificating so they can pick up $33 a few times this season while being abused by parents, rained on, or burnt to a crisp. It's easier to work in the local supermarket. So things are going to get worse. There are way too many games that call for officials and I am betting that if the kids scrimmaged and self-reffed, like they do in the park (for those of you that let your kids play pick-up) you'd have a fraction of the issues you have now. It's not really essential that these youngsters' games are played like the world cup final, it's rec ball, so the odd missed offside isn't going to make any difference. As for the refs keeping kids safe, my experience has been that kids and adults too, play cleaner and respect each other more when there is no ref. They get on with it and play for the love of the game. All of this stems from we parents spoiling our kids and making them think any of this matters outside our own egos.

Sorry, LI Ref, I don't think you are going to get any more refs, ENY Referees are not trying hard enough to recruit and as for LISRA? Less said the better. Giving Cathy Caldwell referee of the year is an incentive to all the other hard working refs out there? Fewer games, leagues and teams would be a start and failing that, cut down on the wasted and stretched resources.


I think i actually agree with most of what you say. But to suggest that a competitive game (for standings) younger than U13 should be played without referees is a bit stupid and would never work. Rec soccer is played in the park and you don't play for standings....Once you create leagues and you play for standings, the games will become competitive and of course aggressive, you need Referees for this no matter what age you play.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/30/20 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
What a sorry state of affairs we have reached when LI Ref puts out a perfectly reasonable question asking how we can help with the ref shortage and the thread morphs into an open state of hostilities between two entrenched camps. It's pathetic and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. How about this answer: stop elevating day-to-day games into anything that seems to matter. Having a ref seems to make parents feel empowered to complain on the sideline but games under U11 really don't need a grown man in a uniform running around after the kids and nothing under U13 should need ARs. There will be a further shortage of ARs this year as many of them can't be bothered to pay $70 and sit through four hours of Lee Suckle pontificating so they can pick up $33 a few times this season while being abused by parents, rained on, or burnt to a crisp. It's easier to work in the local supermarket. So things are going to get worse. There are way too many games that call for officials and I am betting that if the kids scrimmaged and self-reffed, like they do in the park (for those of you that let your kids play pick-up) you'd have a fraction of the issues you have now. It's not really essential that these youngsters' games are played like the world cup final, it's rec ball, so the odd missed offside isn't going to make any difference. As for the refs keeping kids safe, my experience has been that kids and adults too, play cleaner and respect each other more when there is no ref. They get on with it and play for the love of the game. All of this stems from we parents spoiling our kids and making them think any of this matters outside our own egos.

Sorry, LI Ref, I don't think you are going to get any more refs, ENY Referees are not trying hard enough to recruit and as for LISRA? Less said the better. Giving Cathy Caldwell referee of the year is an incentive to all the other hard working refs out there? Fewer games, leagues and teams would be a start and failing that, cut down on the wasted and stretched resources.


I think i actually agree with most of what you say. But to suggest that a competitive game (for standings) younger than U13 should be played without referees is a bit stupid and would never work. Rec soccer is played in the park and you don't play for standings....Once you create leagues and you play for standings, the games will become competitive and of course aggressive, you need Referees for this no matter what age you play.


You got me slightly wrong. I had said no ARs (assistants) for anything under U13 which is when you are full size and no CRs for U9 and even U10 - it's not that it's stupid, there literally just aren't enough refs to go around so there are old guys out there doing ten games a weekend. NYCSL is burning up AR availability for hundreds of games each weekend for small sided U12 games. Now that's stupid. A competent CR can handle a small sided game without a pair of ARs who would be better used on a full sized field somewhere else. Just trying to be practical.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/30/20 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
What a sorry state of affairs we have reached when LI Ref puts out a perfectly reasonable question asking how we can help with the ref shortage and the thread morphs into an open state of hostilities between two entrenched camps. It's pathetic and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. How about this answer: stop elevating day-to-day games into anything that seems to matter. Having a ref seems to make parents feel empowered to complain on the sideline but games under U11 really don't need a grown man in a uniform running around after the kids and nothing under U13 should need ARs. There will be a further shortage of ARs this year as many of them can't be bothered to pay $70 and sit through four hours of Lee Suckle pontificating so they can pick up $33 a few times this season while being abused by parents, rained on, or burnt to a crisp. It's easier to work in the local supermarket. So things are going to get worse. There are way too many games that call for officials and I am betting that if the kids scrimmaged and self-reffed, like they do in the park (for those of you that let your kids play pick-up) you'd have a fraction of the issues you have now. It's not really essential that these youngsters' games are played like the world cup final, it's rec ball, so the odd missed offside isn't going to make any difference. As for the refs keeping kids safe, my experience has been that kids and adults too, play cleaner and respect each other more when there is no ref. They get on with it and play for the love of the game. All of this stems from we parents spoiling our kids and making them think any of this matters outside our own egos.

Sorry, LI Ref, I don't think you are going to get any more refs, ENY Referees are not trying hard enough to recruit and as for LISRA? Less said the better. Giving Cathy Caldwell referee of the year is an incentive to all the other hard working refs out there? Fewer games, leagues and teams would be a start and failing that, cut down on the wasted and stretched resources.


I think i actually agree with most of what you say. But to suggest that a competitive game (for standings) younger than U13 should be played without referees is a bit stupid and would never work. Rec soccer is played in the park and you don't play for standings....Once you create leagues and you play for standings, the games will become competitive and of course aggressive, you need Referees for this no matter what age you play.


You got me slightly wrong. I had said no ARs (assistants) for anything under U13 which is when you are full size and no CRs for U9 and even U10 - it's not that it's stupid, there literally just aren't enough refs to go around so there are old guys out there doing ten games a weekend. NYCSL is burning up AR availability for hundreds of games each weekend for small sided U12 games. Now that's stupid. A competent CR can handle a small sided game without a pair of ARs who would be better used on a full sized field somewhere else. Just trying to be practical.



wait a fkg minute!!!! nyclub uses ars at u12????? you are right, that is stupid.
Posted By: Larry Miller Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/30/20 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
What a sorry state of affairs we have reached when LI Ref puts out a perfectly reasonable question asking how we can help with the ref shortage and the thread morphs into an open state of hostilities between two entrenched camps. It's pathetic and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. How about this answer: stop elevating day-to-day games into anything that seems to matter. Having a ref seems to make parents feel empowered to complain on the sideline but games under U11 really don't need a grown man in a uniform running around after the kids and nothing under U13 should need ARs. There will be a further shortage of ARs this year as many of them can't be bothered to pay $70 and sit through four hours of Lee Suckle pontificating so they can pick up $33 a few times this season while being abused by parents, rained on, or burnt to a crisp. It's easier to work in the local supermarket. So things are going to get worse. There are way too many games that call for officials and I am betting that if the kids scrimmaged and self-reffed, like they do in the park (for those of you that let your kids play pick-up) you'd have a fraction of the issues you have now. It's not really essential that these youngsters' games are played like the world cup final, it's rec ball, so the odd missed offside isn't going to make any difference. As for the refs keeping kids safe, my experience has been that kids and adults too, play cleaner and respect each other more when there is no ref. They get on with it and play for the love of the game. All of this stems from we parents spoiling our kids and making them think any of this matters outside our own egos.

Sorry, LI Ref, I don't think you are going to get any more refs, ENY Referees are not trying hard enough to recruit and as for LISRA? Less said the better. Giving Cathy Caldwell referee of the year is an incentive to all the other hard working refs out there? Fewer games, leagues and teams would be a start and failing that, cut down on the wasted and stretched resources.


I think i actually agree with most of what you say. But to suggest that a competitive game (for standings) younger than U13 should be played without referees is a bit stupid and would never work. Rec soccer is played in the park and you don't play for standings....Once you create leagues and you play for standings, the games will become competitive and of course aggressive, you need Referees for this no matter what age you play.


You got me slightly wrong. I had said no ARs (assistants) for anything under U13 which is when you are full size and no CRs for U9 and even U10 - it's not that it's stupid, there literally just aren't enough refs to go around so there are old guys out there doing ten games a weekend. NYCSL is burning up AR availability for hundreds of games each weekend for small sided U12 games. Now that's stupid. A competent CR can handle a small sided game without a pair of ARs who would be better used on a full sized field somewhere else. Just trying to be practical.



wait a fkg minute!!!! nyclub uses ars at u12????? you are right, that is stupid.



Do you why Grossman uses ARs at U12? I guess you are not aware of 'the deal'.

Let me enlighten y'all....When JSS and NYCSL started, LISRA busted Grossman's balls due to pressure from LIJSL, and more importantly the ENYYSA Refs.

So, with my assistance Grossman became his own assignor. NSRA was name of Grossman's Ref Association. Nassau Suffolk Referee Association. Now, like magic, Grossman was given a spreadsheet with the date for every referee in New York State. I know because I had/have a copy and LISRA went nuts.

So, in the interest of Referee World War 3, Grossman paid the refs more than LIJSL and promised to use more LISRA refs.

Now whether or not that handshake is still in force is moot to me.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/30/20 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
What a sorry state of affairs we have reached when LI Ref puts out a perfectly reasonable question asking how we can help with the ref shortage and the thread morphs into an open state of hostilities between two entrenched camps. It's pathetic and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. How about this answer: stop elevating day-to-day games into anything that seems to matter. Having a ref seems to make parents feel empowered to complain on the sideline but games under U11 really don't need a grown man in a uniform running around after the kids and nothing under U13 should need ARs. There will be a further shortage of ARs this year as many of them can't be bothered to pay $70 and sit through four hours of Lee Suckle pontificating so they can pick up $33 a few times this season while being abused by parents, rained on, or burnt to a crisp. It's easier to work in the local supermarket. So things are going to get worse. There are way too many games that call for officials and I am betting that if the kids scrimmaged and self-reffed, like they do in the park (for those of you that let your kids play pick-up) you'd have a fraction of the issues you have now. It's not really essential that these youngsters' games are played like the world cup final, it's rec ball, so the odd missed offside isn't going to make any difference. As for the refs keeping kids safe, my experience has been that kids and adults too, play cleaner and respect each other more when there is no ref. They get on with it and play for the love of the game. All of this stems from we parents spoiling our kids and making them think any of this matters outside our own egos.

Sorry, LI Ref, I don't think you are going to get any more refs, ENY Referees are not trying hard enough to recruit and as for LISRA? Less said the better. Giving Cathy Caldwell referee of the year is an incentive to all the other hard working refs out there? Fewer games, leagues and teams would be a start and failing that, cut down on the wasted and stretched resources.


I think i actually agree with most of what you say. But to suggest that a competitive game (for standings) younger than U13 should be played without referees is a bit stupid and would never work. Rec soccer is played in the park and you don't play for standings....Once you create leagues and you play for standings, the games will become competitive and of course aggressive, you need Referees for this no matter what age you play.


You got me slightly wrong. I had said no ARs (assistants) for anything under U13 which is when you are full size and no CRs for U9 and even U10 - it's not that it's stupid, there literally just aren't enough refs to go around so there are old guys out there doing ten games a weekend. NYCSL is burning up AR availability for hundreds of games each weekend for small sided U12 games. Now that's stupid. A competent CR can handle a small sided game without a pair of ARs who would be better used on a full sized field somewhere else. Just trying to be practical.



wait a fkg minute!!!! nyclub uses ars at u12????? you are right, that is stupid.



Do you why Grossman uses ARs at U12? I guess you are not aware of 'the deal'.

Let me enlighten y'all....When JSS and NYCSL started, LISRA busted Grossman's balls due to pressure from LIJSL, and more importantly the ENYYSA Refs.

So, with my assistance Grossman became his own assignor. NSRA was name of Grossman's Ref Association. Nassau Suffolk Referee Association. Now, like magic, Grossman was given a spreadsheet with the date for every referee in New York State. I know because I had/have a copy and LISRA went nuts.

So, in the interest of Referee World War 3, Grossman paid the refs more than LIJSL and promised to use more LISRA refs.

Now whether or not that handshake is still in force is moot to me.


...In any event, ARs for U12 soccer (kids barely out of diapers, size 4 ball, 9v9 on a small field) is just stupid and whoever thought of this...well whatever....Common sense scores 0 and stupidity scores 1.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/31/20 02:39 AM
So I am looking to become a new ref and they are telling me I have to take the "grass roots" class. The only three classes scheduled are in White Plains, Albany and Oneonta. I guess that they don't really want new refs that badly.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/31/20 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
What a sorry state of affairs we have reached when LI Ref puts out a perfectly reasonable question asking how we can help with the ref shortage and the thread morphs into an open state of hostilities between two entrenched camps. It's pathetic and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. How about this answer: stop elevating day-to-day games into anything that seems to matter. Having a ref seems to make parents feel empowered to complain on the sideline but games under U11 really don't need a grown man in a uniform running around after the kids and nothing under U13 should need ARs. There will be a further shortage of ARs this year as many of them can't be bothered to pay $70 and sit through four hours of Lee Suckle pontificating so they can pick up $33 a few times this season while being abused by parents, rained on, or burnt to a crisp. It's easier to work in the local supermarket. So things are going to get worse. There are way too many games that call for officials and I am betting that if the kids scrimmaged and self-reffed, like they do in the park (for those of you that let your kids play pick-up) you'd have a fraction of the issues you have now. It's not really essential that these youngsters' games are played like the world cup final, it's rec ball, so the odd missed offside isn't going to make any difference. As for the refs keeping kids safe, my experience has been that kids and adults too, play cleaner and respect each other more when there is no ref. They get on with it and play for the love of the game. All of this stems from we parents spoiling our kids and making them think any of this matters outside our own egos.

Sorry, LI Ref, I don't think you are going to get any more refs, ENY Referees are not trying hard enough to recruit and as for LISRA? Less said the better. Giving Cathy Caldwell referee of the year is an incentive to all the other hard working refs out there? Fewer games, leagues and teams would be a start and failing that, cut down on the wasted and stretched resources.

No need to apologize to me you kind of crystallized my main points and that is the problem. We will continue to have a shortage and solutions to this problem will not be easy since the problems are quite complex.
Then there are so many competing entities with too many self interests to protect . When my daughters played and I Coached the dominant league was LIJSL. I’m all for the growth of youth soccer but it seems every day there is a new league, a new for profit training organization and political changes in the landscape.

US Soccer decided to restructure the referee grades which to me denigrates Referees that took more challenging recertification tests and were assessed as required by those higher grades(like Grade 7 Referees). Now most referees will be considered “Grass Roots” referees which to many is like getting a demotion without an explanation. Then ENYSRA takes full control of recertification as if the former system was broken. All of this has done nothing for the morale of current referees and has caused a lot of confusion and upheaval. Not something you would want when you need MORE referees not less.
The youth soccer industrial complex is so full of alphabet city competing entities be they Leagues, sanctioning bodies, training organizations, venues, referee associations and while it is all supposed to serve our youth I feel that sometimes that goal gets lost within all the competing entities.

Meanwhile parents are so pressured in to buying in to the idea that if your child is not playing at a certain level then they are failing their children. So they are always shopping around for a “better” experience for their children. As the competition for players heats up parents are spending outrageous amounts of money which to many turns out to be one of the worse investment they can make. It’s like they are chasing the soccer chalice that is not there and would be better off investing in a 529 fund for college.

In effect I believe it is the significant money that they spend that puts so much pressure on their children to “succeed” and the idea that kids should play just to have fun without a focus on winning has vaporized. Are we taking all the fun out of the game?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/31/20 02:51 PM
Incentive - I do not know. As a fellow official, it's getting worse and worse. Coaches care too much, trainers care too much. Is a million dollar contract on the line? No! Is this professional, no? I cannot referee a game without multiple people complaining. If I didn't need the money, I would quit. Nobody understands that referees are human and make errors. Do we go to your job and say you are perfect, NO! I used to referee for the kids and love of the sport and now I do it for the money. The behavior has getting worse and worse by everyone, it's incredible. If we can police the behavior of coaches and spectators, there will be more referees.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 01/31/20 02:53 PM
They need referees, they really do. Unfortunately, it's a lot harder now. USSF decided to do this Grassroots thing and does it make sense no, but it takes more and more time
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/01/20 05:35 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Incentive - I do not know. As a fellow official, it's getting worse and worse. Coaches care too much, trainers care too much. Is a million dollar contract on the line? No! Is this professional, no? I cannot referee a game without multiple people complaining. If I didn't need the money, I would quit. Nobody understands that referees are human and make errors. Do we go to your job and say you are perfect, NO! I used to referee for the kids and love of the sport and now I do it for the money. The behavior has getting worse and worse by everyone, it's incredible. If we can police the behavior of coaches and spectators, there will be more referees.


They need referees, they really do. Unfortunately, it's a lot harder now. USSF decided to do this Grassroots thing and does it make sense no, but it takes more and more time

You guys are both right but think about this logically, as a society we are becoming somewhat divided and the civility is probably at an all time low. So people think it’s ok to just be rude to each other just because we disagree. Figures of authority like our policemen are not being shown the respect they deserve. My referee crew calls your team offside and it is the right call but the Coach yells out of frustration because the pressure to win is so great. Don’t get me wrong the Coach is 40 yards from the offside player but that doesn't stop him from screaming. It’s not that the Coach cares too much, I want him to care but not about winning but about getting better every game. This counts for me too.
We’re all supposed to get better with every minute we spend in a game, be it the players, coaches, trainers and referees. But we also all have a responsibility to our children to insure that their experience is a positive one. Here are some reasons why this doesn’t happen.

Parents pay a lot of money for trainers, they pay all this money and have their kids play in two leagues, experience soccer 6-7 days a week. Trainers compete to get work from clubs, Coaches compete to get with the right club/team. If they lose they are considered a failure and stand to lose players and endure turmoil with their team and club. Throw in to the mix that stereotypical insane Soccer Dad whose child is a superstar and only cares about his child scoring getting minutes and winning. His kid plays U13 and already expects him to get a D1 scholarship. Throw in a referee crew in their second year that makes a mistake on an offside call and an alleged adult loses his mind and deems to have us all join him in his asylum. None of this is a good mix.

Players need time to develop, in the rest of the world practice to games ratios are much higher, here it’s all about the games, for the enjoyment of the adults mostly. Tournaments by organizations are big money makers and the opportunity for teams to collect trophies and for clubs to compete to win a trophy. It’s all about win win win. Parents spending a lot of money are expected to get results. By doing that we are not talking about development we are talking about wins and hardware because that proves RESULTS.

I just truly wish that we had more parents and coaches become referees because they make great referees, especially when their children are still playing because they also get to watch other games. Coaches have been in pressure situations and can usually handle the pressure of a game as a referee while also understanding what the referee is dealing with when he Coaches his team.

In spite of the fact that being a referee is difficult I would encourage everyone to try it and for these two referees please don’t quit just because of the challenges of attending classes and recertification. Playing and coaching well is difficult. So is being a referee. Let’s just try to enjoy the beautiful game because a majority of the time that’s exactly what happens.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/04/20 08:55 PM
I have been a referee for about 10 years now. Each year the behavior of the parents and coaches gets worse. LIJSL makes it more difficult with their constant "improvements" (ie online game reports that don't work, online check ins via cell phones vs physical cards, etc.). The assigners giving back to back games 30 minutes away or making you go to five different fields in one day. The fees to re-certify and then join LISRA (or you don't get access to arbiter to get games). Forced to buy all new uniforms. And now USSF is making us take a four hour refresher course on our dime.....no thanks. I'm done.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/04/20 09:37 PM
$30 for background check, 90 minutes for safesport course, 4 hours of online courses, 6 hours of in person class for $190, $160 for union fee, figure another $150+ for uniforms and equipment. The buy-in is kind of high considering how desperate soccer is for new refs.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/05/20 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
...In any event, ARs for U12 soccer (kids barely out of diapers, size 4 ball, 9v9 on a small field) is just stupid and whoever thought of this...well whatever....Common sense scores 0 and stupidity scores 1.


There is a benefit to ARs for U12 and below... experience for the ref. If you don't have enough refs to support it, that's on your league/assignor. Maybe they need to pay the refs more, maybe they need to take a harsher stance on what qualifies as 'abuse".

Do you NEED ARs at younger ages? No. But there is a benefit.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/05/20 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
...In any event, ARs for U12 soccer (kids barely out of diapers, size 4 ball, 9v9 on a small field) is just stupid and whoever thought of this...well whatever....Common sense scores 0 and stupidity scores 1.


There is a benefit to ARs for U12 and below... experience for the ref. If you don't have enough refs to support it, that's on your league/assignor. Maybe they need to pay the refs more, maybe they need to take a harsher stance on what qualifies as 'abuse".

Do you NEED ARs at younger ages? No. But there is a benefit.



there is a difference between benefits/training ARs and a requirement to have ARs for U12!!!! these are two different animals!!!!!!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/05/20 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
...In any event, ARs for U12 soccer (kids barely out of diapers, size 4 ball, 9v9 on a small field) is just stupid and whoever thought of this...well whatever....Common sense scores 0 and stupidity scores 1.


There is a benefit to ARs for U12 and below... experience for the ref. If you don't have enough refs to support it, that's on your league/assignor. Maybe they need to pay the refs more, maybe they need to take a harsher stance on what qualifies as 'abuse".

Do you NEED ARs at younger ages? No. But there is a benefit.



there is a difference between benefits/training ARs and a requirement to have ARs for U12!!!! these are two different animals!!!!!!

So if you have people eligible to AR, you shouldn't use them? We actually have ARs starting at U10. As long as you have the refs, why not?

And you (assuming it was you) never said anything about a "requirement" for AR, you said "ARs for U12 soccer is just stupid."
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/06/20 04:37 PM
One problem I see with the referee shortage is it starts with the lack of new referees coming up through the ranks. There are multiple reasons which include the abuse of referees and pay. I also see the shortage stemming from people just don't want to do anything. They want someone else to do it for them. Look at each soccer club and I guarantee you that they have difficulty finding coaches for younger teams. Everyone wants to just hire trainers so they don't have to volunteer. LISRA, and others like them in other areas, needs to step up their recruiting game. Not once have I ever been contacted by LISRA to see if any kids in the club I'm associated with are interested in learning to become a referee. If you want new people you have to go out and find them. I'd start there to start helping solve the problem.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/06/20 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
One problem I see with the referee shortage is it starts with the lack of new referees coming up through the ranks. There are multiple reasons which include the abuse of referees and pay. I also see the shortage stemming from people just don't want to do anything. They want someone else to do it for them. Look at each soccer club and I guarantee you that they have difficulty finding coaches for younger teams. Everyone wants to just hire trainers so they don't have to volunteer. LISRA, and others like them in other areas, needs to step up their recruiting game. Not once have I ever been contacted by LISRA to see if any kids in the club I'm associated with are interested in learning to become a referee. If you want new people you have to go out and find them. I'd start there to start helping solve the problem.


I've been begging people in my club to become referees. The large amount of time and money it requires for a new adult to become a referee has scared away everyone who has shown any interest.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 12:31 PM
Yeah that new four hour class on top of everything else is the straw that broke the camels back, I slept through the whole thing , what takes 4 hours could easily be done in 1, my last season, I'm a good ref but it doesn't matter, the losing team treats you like s.... The abuse is getting worse every year ,completely not worth it.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 01:16 PM
I was interested in helping out the referee situation but saw all the training required and the fact that I would have to pay 200 bucks and that was the last of me helping out! ALL jobs pay for employees to be trained not the other way around! They just want to continue to line their pockets with money rather that fix the issues!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
One problem I see with the referee shortage is it starts with the lack of new referees coming up through the ranks. There are multiple reasons which include the abuse of referees and pay. I also see the shortage stemming from people just don't want to do anything. They want someone else to do it for them. Look at each soccer club and I guarantee you that they have difficulty finding coaches for younger teams. Everyone wants to just hire trainers so they don't have to volunteer. LISRA, and others like them in other areas, needs to step up their recruiting game. Not once have I ever been contacted by LISRA to see if any kids in the club I'm associated with are interested in learning to become a referee. If you want new people you have to go out and find them. I'd start there to start helping solve the problem.


I've been begging people in my club to become referees. The large amount of time and money it requires for a new adult to become a referee has scared away everyone who has shown any interest.


Perhaps the people you asked, while they had good intentions, had some interest but truly didn't want to become a referee. This is another problem with society in general today. Too many people want instant gratification. Unfortunately I don't see any way around having to come into some degree of expense and good amount of time to become not just a referee but a good referee. Your post is something LISRA and others need to look at and take seriously.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 01:53 PM
where does the money go when a coach is red carded and pays a fine to get his card back?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Yeah that new four hour class on top of everything else is the straw that broke the camels back, I slept through the whole thing , what takes 4 hours could easily be done in 1, my last season, I'm a good ref but it doesn't matter, the losing team treats you like s.... The abuse is getting worse every year ,completely not worth it.


This is what bother me about clubs and academies. Here you have a good referee and the abuse keeps getting worse? Why? Like them or not, LIJSL awards teams Sportsmanship Awards every season (don't know if EDP or others do). Part of that is based on player, coach and parent behavior. Those award winning teams are the ones that you have little to no trouble with. The bottom of the totem pole teams are who make up the bad apples. I as a long time coach do not tolerate abuse towards refs from anyone. To that end too many Clubs and Academies do too little on their end to curtail such behavior. There needs to be a concerted effort on all leagues to eliminate abuse. Until that happens we will see more referees like you hanging up the whistle. As for the class, they need to provide online training/courses that can be done efficiently and easily so you don't feel like your wasting time and money. Get with the 21st Century LISRA and others!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 02:49 PM
I hope my kids team never ever ever wins the "sportsmanship award"!!!!!!!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I hope my kids team never ever ever wins the "sportsmanship award"!!!!!!!


Yes, I'm sure you want them to grow up to be neanderthals like you. Lord help those children.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 04:21 PM
looks like you are happy with your "sportsmanship award"...do you have it proudly displayed next to the participation trophys you have received and are so proud of? smile
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
One problem I see with the referee shortage is it starts with the lack of new referees coming up through the ranks. There are multiple reasons which include the abuse of referees and pay. I also see the shortage stemming from people just don't want to do anything. They want someone else to do it for them. Look at each soccer club and I guarantee you that they have difficulty finding coaches for younger teams. Everyone wants to just hire trainers so they don't have to volunteer. LISRA, and others like them in other areas, needs to step up their recruiting game. Not once have I ever been contacted by LISRA to see if any kids in the club I'm associated with are interested in learning to become a referee. If you want new people you have to go out and find them. I'd start there to start helping solve the problem.


I've been begging people in my club to become referees. The large amount of time and money it requires for a new adult to become a referee has scared away everyone who has shown any interest.


Perhaps the people you asked, while they had good intentions, had some interest but truly didn't want to become a referee. This is another problem with society in general today. Too many people want instant gratification. Unfortunately I don't see any way around having to come into some degree of expense and good amount of time to become not just a referee but a good referee. Your post is something LISRA and others need to look at and take seriously.


For the person looking to spend both days every weekend out there making money, they are willing for it to take 2 or 3 weeks to break even on their investment. For the person looking to help out by doing a couple games a weekend and to put a little change in their pocket, it's a losing proposition. They'll be lucky to break even over the course of the season. We need both types to have enough refs to cover all the games.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I hope my kids team never ever ever wins the "sportsmanship award"!!!!!!!


Yes, I'm sure you want them to grow up to be neanderthals like you. Lord help those children.


so if somebody does not want a sportsmanship award you label them a "neanderthal"? Its people like you that hate blindly that is a problem with america...you are a snowflake...so delicate....wimp.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 04:57 PM
Some people seem to equate sportsmanship with being a snowflake or a wimp. Nothing could be further from the truth. But that's just the neanderthal way of thinking. I won't waste my time bothering to educate those who think like that because it's like spitting into the wind.
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I hope my kids team never ever ever wins the "sportsmanship award"!!!!!!!


Yes, I'm sure you want them to grow up to be neanderthals like you. Lord help those children.


so if somebody does not want a sportsmanship award you label them a "neanderthal"? Its people like you that hate blindly that is a problem with america...you are a snowflake...so delicate....wimp.


Please do tell us why winning a sportsmanship award is so bad?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
looks like you are happy with your "sportsmanship award"...do you have it proudly displayed next to the participation trophys you have received and are so proud of? smile

Don't believe in participation trophies, never have, never will. Earn an award or get nothing. Why do you assume that a sportsmanship award is akin to participation trophies? Do you equate your child's value with how many fouls or injuries he/she causes to other players during a game or how many cards obtained during a season? Do you also equate sportsmanship awards with meaning the team came in last or something? Sorry pal your way off base and really have no idea what your talking about. You are the exact kind of parent that leagues, clubs, referees, most other parents, and likely the players on the field don't like and wish would just disappear. Don't go away mad, just go away......
Posted By: Larry Miller Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 05:33 PM
The way it was explained to me years ago by a LIJSL Executive Bunch member is that the Sportsmanship Award gives a team a chance to win an award without winning their division and getting a trophy. I have to agree with that thought especially at the younger ages. Does it matter at U15 and up, I'll leave that to you pundits.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 05:45 PM
A sportsmanship award at any age is much different than a participation trophy because the components of the award are not just the kids on the field playing. The kids could be perfect but if the coaches or parents are idiots, no award. For U15 and up this pundit would want to win the award along with the league title of course because it means the team is doing everything right on the field. Just my opinion...
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Yeah that new four hour class on top of everything else is the straw that broke the camels back, I slept through the whole thing , what takes 4 hours could easily be done in 1, my last season, I'm a good ref but it doesn't matter, the losing team treats you like s.... The abuse is getting worse every year ,completely not worth it.


This is what bother me about clubs and academies. Here you have a good referee and the abuse keeps getting worse? Why? Like them or not, LIJSL awards teams Sportsmanship Awards every season (don't know if EDP or others do). Part of that is based on player, coach and parent behavior. Those award winning teams are the ones that you have little to no trouble with. The bottom of the totem pole teams are who make up the bad apples. I as a long time coach do not tolerate abuse towards refs from anyone. To that end too many Clubs and Academies do too little on their end to curtail such behavior. There needs to be a concerted effort on all leagues to eliminate abuse. Until that happens we will see more referees like you hanging up the whistle. As for the class, they need to provide online training/courses that can be done efficiently and easily so you don't feel like your wasting time and money. Get with the 21st Century LISRA and others!


You are aware LISRA has nothing to do with the certification/recertification of referees now. It's all handled by ENY. All LISRA can do is attempt to recruit new referees which before ENY took over the process they were pretty good in doing. They had classes almost every month. Now since ENY took over it's gotten horrible.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
looks like you are happy with your "sportsmanship award"...do you have it proudly displayed next to the participation trophys you have received and are so proud of? smile

Don't believe in participation trophies, never have, never will. Earn an award or get nothing. Why do you assume that a sportsmanship award is akin to participation trophies? Do you equate your child's value with how many fouls or injuries he/she causes to other players during a game or how many cards obtained during a season? Do you also equate sportsmanship awards with meaning the team came in last or something? Sorry pal your way off base and really have no idea what your talking about. You are the exact kind of parent that leagues, clubs, referees, most other parents, and likely the players on the field don't like and wish would just disappear. Don't go away mad, just go away......


wtf are you babbling about? I never said any of those things!!!!!! you are a typical sc_mbag quick to judge anyone that does not fit in with whatever narative you want at the time....just go away crybaby and stop pretending to be as smart as you think, you are not....you are just as bad as cnn and cbs mostly bs and no substance.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Yeah that new four hour class on top of everything else is the straw that broke the camels back, I slept through the whole thing , what takes 4 hours could easily be done in 1, my last season, I'm a good ref but it doesn't matter, the losing team treats you like s.... The abuse is getting worse every year ,completely not worth it.


This is what bother me about clubs and academies. Here you have a good referee and the abuse keeps getting worse? Why? Like them or not, LIJSL awards teams Sportsmanship Awards every season (don't know if EDP or others do). Part of that is based on player, coach and parent behavior. Those award winning teams are the ones that you have little to no trouble with. The bottom of the totem pole teams are who make up the bad apples. I as a long time coach do not tolerate abuse towards refs from anyone. To that end too many Clubs and Academies do too little on their end to curtail such behavior. There needs to be a concerted effort on all leagues to eliminate abuse. Until that happens we will see more referees like you hanging up the whistle. As for the class, they need to provide online training/courses that can be done efficiently and easily so you don't feel like your wasting time and money. Get with the 21st Century LISRA and others!


You are aware LISRA has nothing to do with the certification/recertification of referees now. It's all handled by ENY. All LISRA can do is attempt to recruit new referees which before ENY took over the process they were pretty good in doing. They had classes almost every month. Now since ENY took over it's gotten horrible.


From the fire into the frying pan. Doesn't seem like anyone is doing their job. So LISRA held classes, maybe even posted it on their awesome website? If that constitutes recruiting then they are failing along with ENY.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/07/20 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
looks like you are happy with your "sportsmanship award"...do you have it proudly displayed next to the participation trophys you have received and are so proud of? smile

Don't believe in participation trophies, never have, never will. Earn an award or get nothing. Why do you assume that a sportsmanship award is akin to participation trophies? Do you equate your child's value with how many fouls or injuries he/she causes to other players during a game or how many cards obtained during a season? Do you also equate sportsmanship awards with meaning the team came in last or something? Sorry pal your way off base and really have no idea what your talking about. You are the exact kind of parent that leagues, clubs, referees, most other parents, and likely the players on the field don't like and wish would just disappear. Don't go away mad, just go away......


wtf are you babbling about? I never said any of those things!!!!!! you are a typical sc_mbag quick to judge anyone that does not fit in with whatever narative you want at the time....just go away crybaby and stop pretending to be as smart as you think, you are not....you are just as bad as cnn and cbs mostly bs and no substance.


Aww, I'm sorry snowflake. Quick to throw a jab at someone but you have a hard time taking the counter punch. You're response shows me you're everything that's wrong with youth sports on the parent side.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/10/20 05:17 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I hope my kids team never ever ever wins the "sportsmanship award"!!!!!!!


Ignorance is not bliss, you just proved it. Here’s why you are clueless. If you meant to be funny, you’re not. If you don’t want your kid to win the award you’re part of the problem.

When I referee a game and I see a LIJSL team with a Sportsmanship Patch I congratulate them because as a former coach I know how difficult it is to win that award. The team that wears that patch is always such a nice fun team to work with and it all starts with the right coach. He or she is usually a very nice sporting person and an absolute pleasure.

How do I know how difficult it is to win the Sportsmanship Patch? When I coached we won it ONCE. That was it. Now you supposed tough guys out there think getting trophies and awards create a “snowflake” culture. This is not a participation award. This is an award based on ratings of the players, coaches and spectators. This is not about winning either. While it has happened it is not usually the first place team that wins the award. Which should tell us something about the team’s character. They may not win a championship but they will show class every game of the season. It’s not corny, it’s real.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/10/20 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I hope my kids team never ever ever wins the "sportsmanship award"!!!!!!!


Ignorance is not bliss, you just proved it. Here’s why you are clueless. If you meant to be funny, you’re not. If you don’t want your kid to win the award you’re part of the problem.

When I referee a game and I see a LIJSL team with a Sportsmanship Patch I congratulate them because as a former coach I know how difficult it is to win that award. The team that wears that patch is always such a nice fun team to work with and it all starts with the right coach. He or she is usually a very nice sporting person and an absolute pleasure.

How do I know how difficult it is to win the Sportsmanship Patch? When I coached we won it ONCE. That was it. Now you supposed tough guys out there think getting trophies and awards create a “snowflake” culture. This is not a participation award. This is an award based on ratings of the players, coaches and spectators. This is not about winning either. While it has happened it is not usually the first place team that wins the award. Which should tell us something about the team’s character. They may not win a championship but they will show class every game of the season. It’s not corny, it’s real.



every time i read your pathetic posts for some reason i hear a violin playing in the background, every time....would you like some cheese with that whine?...buttercup.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/10/20 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I hope my kids team never ever ever wins the "sportsmanship award"!!!!!!!


Ignorance is not bliss, you just proved it. Here’s why you are clueless. If you meant to be funny, you’re not. If you don’t want your kid to win the award you’re part of the problem.

When I referee a game and I see a LIJSL team with a Sportsmanship Patch I congratulate them because as a former coach I know how difficult it is to win that award. The team that wears that patch is always such a nice fun team to work with and it all starts with the right coach. He or she is usually a very nice sporting person and an absolute pleasure.

How do I know how difficult it is to win the Sportsmanship Patch? When I coached we won it ONCE. That was it. Now you supposed tough guys out there think getting trophies and awards create a “snowflake” culture. This is not a participation award. This is an award based on ratings of the players, coaches and spectators. This is not about winning either. While it has happened it is not usually the first place team that wins the award. Which should tell us something about the team’s character. They may not win a championship but they will show class every game of the season. It’s not corny, it’s real.



every time i read your pathetic posts for some reason i hear a violin playing in the background, every time....would you like some cheese with that whine?...buttercup.


Says the guy posting under ANONYMOUS. Put your name out here big boy. We know you peaked in 12th grade and haven't grown up a bit since so you need to act like Mr Tough Guy. If you coach...your kids hate you. If you're a parent...your kid hates you if this is your public attitude or just your keyboard courage showing. But you're a winner...right? Grow up
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/10/20 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I hope my kids team never ever ever wins the "sportsmanship award"!!!!!!!


Ignorance is not bliss, you just proved it. Here’s why you are clueless. If you meant to be funny, you’re not. If you don’t want your kid to win the award you’re part of the problem.

When I referee a game and I see a LIJSL team with a Sportsmanship Patch I congratulate them because as a former coach I know how difficult it is to win that award. The team that wears that patch is always such a nice fun team to work with and it all starts with the right coach. He or she is usually a very nice sporting person and an absolute pleasure.

How do I know how difficult it is to win the Sportsmanship Patch? When I coached we won it ONCE. That was it. Now you supposed tough guys out there think getting trophies and awards create a “snowflake” culture. This is not a participation award. This is an award based on ratings of the players, coaches and spectators. This is not about winning either. While it has happened it is not usually the first place team that wins the award. Which should tell us something about the team’s character. They may not win a championship but they will show class every game of the season. It’s not corny, it’s real.



every time i read your pathetic posts for some reason i hear a violin playing in the background, every time....would you like some cheese with that whine?...buttercup.


Says the guy posting under ANONYMOUS. Put your name out here big boy. We know you peaked in 12th grade and haven't grown up a bit since so you need to act like Mr Tough Guy. If you coach...your kids hate you. If you're a parent...your kid hates you if this is your public attitude or just your keyboard courage showing. But you're a winner...right? Grow up


I have a national championship in my trophy case, my kids aspire to earn there own.....what is your excuse? you criticise others and say to your own kids "its ok timmy, your feelings matter and we are just so proud of your 5th place medal...don't worry we will go get a slurpy now"....you are just so pathetic, I would eat you, my kids would eat your own as well....you are worthless, pathetic and weak.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/10/20 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I hope my kids team never ever ever wins the "sportsmanship award"!!!!!!!


Ignorance is not bliss, you just proved it. Here’s why you are clueless. If you meant to be funny, you’re not. If you don’t want your kid to win the award you’re part of the problem.

When I referee a game and I see a LIJSL team with a Sportsmanship Patch I congratulate them because as a former coach I know how difficult it is to win that award. The team that wears that patch is always such a nice fun team to work with and it all starts with the right coach. He or she is usually a very nice sporting person and an absolute pleasure.

How do I know how difficult it is to win the Sportsmanship Patch? When I coached we won it ONCE. That was it. Now you supposed tough guys out there think getting trophies and awards create a “snowflake” culture. This is not a participation award. This is an award based on ratings of the players, coaches and spectators. This is not about winning either. While it has happened it is not usually the first place team that wins the award. Which should tell us something about the team’s character. They may not win a championship but they will show class every game of the season. It’s not corny, it’s real.



every time i read your pathetic posts for some reason i hear a violin playing in the background, every time....would you like some cheese with that whine?...buttercup.


Says the guy posting under ANONYMOUS. Put your name out here big boy. We know you peaked in 12th grade and haven't grown up a bit since so you need to act like Mr Tough Guy. If you coach...your kids hate you. If you're a parent...your kid hates you if this is your public attitude or just your keyboard courage showing. But you're a winner...right? Grow up


I have a national championship in my trophy case, my kids aspire to earn there own.....what is your excuse? you criticise others and say to your own kids "its ok timmy, your feelings matter and we are just so proud of your 5th place medal...don't worry we will go get a slurpy now"....you are just so pathetic, I would eat you, my kids would eat your own as well....you are worthless, pathetic and weak.




Thats strange, i had you pegged as a short, chubby guy who picks his nose all game.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/10/20 08:22 PM
wrong again doushbag....you wrote alot of hateful things earlier....perhaps it is you that your own kids hate?
Perhaps it is you that is short and chubby with a bald spot, perhaps you have a nose picking problem.

Perhaps you are just mad at all the things that make you...YOU. Not my fault your a loser buddy.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/10/20 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
wrong again doushbag....you wrote alot of hateful things earlier....perhaps it is you that your own kids hate?
Perhaps it is you that is short and chubby with a bald spot, perhaps you have a nose picking problem.

Perhaps you are just mad at all the things that make you...YOU. Not my fault your a loser buddy.



We have a name for people like you, “ Fish”, we can reel you in anytime. Fun to reel in but after too much time you start to smell, so we throw you back or use you for bait.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/11/20 03:18 PM
thats funny, did you copy that from a book? it lacks originality....but in the end we know you are the loser here.
and your kids are little wimps just like you.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/11/20 03:45 PM
I checked this topic because my 14 year old was thinking about doing the referee course to make some money. Wow. Larry, you think you could not post the nonsense that "adults" post and maybe keep the content on topic just a little bit. I can't imagine sending my 14 year old to deal with these nutjobs on the sidelines for anything less than $100 an hour.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/11/20 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I checked this topic because my 14 year old was thinking about doing the referee course to make some money. Wow. Larry, you think you could not post the nonsense that "adults" post and maybe keep the content on topic just a little bit. I can't imagine sending my 14 year old to deal with these nutjobs on the sidelines for anything less than $100 an hour.


As the parent of a young ref who started at 13 as an AR and now makes $500 a weekend as a CR while still in high school, I can tell you it's a greasy pole and your 14 year old will need a strong personality to get through it. Mine tells me that he can't be right 100% of the time but he goes with his own read of the game and as long as it's a firm, crisp decision, he rarely gets any flak. Coaches will always give him the benefit of the doubt. I see young ARs coming through and can tell you who will make it right off the bat. Being tall helps. Commands respect, sad but true. Dressing sharply and using firm, confident body language is also crucial (at any age). If your kid can be super-serious and give it full attention, they will be a great ref and can make good money. A sense of humor and a rapport with the players helps too. The players will usually tell their nutjob parents to shut up when they have a ref they want to keep happy. But don't have them do it just to make the money, it's not easy. You have to love the game, watch it all the time, be really good at FIFA (ok that's not essential but it's great for anticipation) be as fast as the players and ideally play well yourself. The kids know. They can spot it a mile off. Starts with the cleats. Show up in a pair of serious black cleats that you know how to use and they will know. Hope that helps. If you think your kid might be sloppy, leave their shirt untucked and not stand to attention on the sidelines, with full focus, I'd give it a miss.PS: Not being hostile, I also have one kid who would be that second category and he would hate this job.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/11/20 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I checked this topic because my 14 year old was thinking about doing the referee course to make some money. Wow. Larry, you think you could not post the nonsense that "adults" post and maybe keep the content on topic just a little bit. I can't imagine sending my 14 year old to deal with these nutjobs on the sidelines for anything less than $100 an hour.


As the parent of a young ref who started at 13 as an AR and now makes $500 a weekend as a CR while still in high school, I can tell you it's a greasy pole and your 14 year old will need a strong personality to get through it. Mine tells me that he can't be right 100% of the time but he goes with his own read of the game and as long as it's a firm, crisp decision, he rarely gets any flak. Coaches will always give him the benefit of the doubt. I see young ARs coming through and can tell you who will make it right off the bat. Being tall helps. Commands respect, sad but true. Dressing sharply and using firm, confident body language is also crucial (at any age). If your kid can be super-serious and give it full attention, they will be a great ref and can make good money. A sense of humor and a rapport with the players helps too. The players will usually tell their nutjob parents to shut up when they have a ref they want to keep happy. But don't have them do it just to make the money, it's not easy. You have to love the game, watch it all the time, be really good at FIFA (ok that's not essential but it's great for anticipation) be as fast as the players and ideally play well yourself. The kids know. They can spot it a mile off. Starts with the cleats. Show up in a pair of serious black cleats that you know how to use and they will know. Hope that helps. If you think your kid might be sloppy, leave their shirt untucked and not stand to attention on the sidelines, with full focus, I'd give it a miss.PS: Not being hostile, I also have one kid who would be that second category and he would hate this job.


Excellent post Finally something constructive instead of the usual B.S.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/12/20 01:38 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I checked this topic because my 14 year old was thinking about doing the referee course to make some money. Wow. Larry, you think you could not post the nonsense that "adults" post and maybe keep the content on topic just a little bit. I can't imagine sending my 14 year old to deal with these nutjobs on the sidelines for anything less than $100 an hour.


As the parent of a young ref who started at 13 as an AR and now makes $500 a weekend as a CR while still in high school, I can tell you it's a greasy pole and your 14 year old will need a strong personality to get through it. Mine tells me that he can't be right 100% of the time but he goes with his own read of the game and as long as it's a firm, crisp decision, he rarely gets any flak. Coaches will always give him the benefit of the doubt. I see young ARs coming through and can tell you who will make it right off the bat. Being tall helps. Commands respect, sad but true. Dressing sharply and using firm, confident body language is also crucial (at any age). If your kid can be super-serious and give it full attention, they will be a great ref and can make good money. A sense of humor and a rapport with the players helps too. The players will usually tell their nutjob parents to shut up when they have a ref they want to keep happy. But don't have them do it just to make the money, it's not easy. You have to love the game, watch it all the time, be really good at FIFA (ok that's not essential but it's great for anticipation) be as fast as the players and ideally play well yourself. The kids know. They can spot it a mile off. Starts with the cleats. Show up in a pair of serious black cleats that you know how to use and they will know. Hope that helps. If you think your kid might be sloppy, leave their shirt untucked and not stand to attention on the sidelines, with full focus, I'd give it a miss.PS: Not being hostile, I also have one kid who would be that second category and he would hate this job.

Thank you for driving every where he has had to go to be a referee! Your support of him has been a huge difference! He must have poise and do a great job! Our young referees are the future and we need more like him.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/12/20 01:21 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I checked this topic because my 14 year old was thinking about doing the referee course to make some money. Wow. Larry, you think you could not post the nonsense that "adults" post and maybe keep the content on topic just a little bit. I can't imagine sending my 14 year old to deal with these nutjobs on the sidelines for anything less than $100 an hour.


As the parent of a young ref who started at 13 as an AR and now makes $500 a weekend as a CR while still in high school, I can tell you it's a greasy pole and your 14 year old will need a strong personality to get through it. Mine tells me that he can't be right 100% of the time but he goes with his own read of the game and as long as it's a firm, crisp decision, he rarely gets any flak. Coaches will always give him the benefit of the doubt. I see young ARs coming through and can tell you who will make it right off the bat. Being tall helps. Commands respect, sad but true. Dressing sharply and using firm, confident body language is also crucial (at any age). If your kid can be super-serious and give it full attention, they will be a great ref and can make good money. A sense of humor and a rapport with the players helps too. The players will usually tell their nutjob parents to shut up when they have a ref they want to keep happy. But don't have them do it just to make the money, it's not easy. You have to love the game, watch it all the time, be really good at FIFA (ok that's not essential but it's great for anticipation) be as fast as the players and ideally play well yourself. The kids know. They can spot it a mile off. Starts with the cleats. Show up in a pair of serious black cleats that you know how to use and they will know. Hope that helps. If you think your kid might be sloppy, leave their shirt untucked and not stand to attention on the sidelines, with full focus, I'd give it a miss.PS: Not being hostile, I also have one kid who would be that second category and he would hate this job.

Thank you for driving every where he has had to go to be a referee! Your support of him has been a huge difference! He must have poise and do a great job! Our young referees are the future and we need more like him.



its nice posts like these last two that take all the fun out of trolling!!! smile
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/12/20 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I checked this topic because my 14 year old was thinking about doing the referee course to make some money. Wow. Larry, you think you could not post the nonsense that "adults" post and maybe keep the content on topic just a little bit. I can't imagine sending my 14 year old to deal with these nutjobs on the sidelines for anything less than $100 an hour.


As the parent of a young ref who started at 13 as an AR and now makes $500 a weekend as a CR while still in high school, I can tell you it's a greasy pole and your 14 year old will need a strong personality to get through it. Mine tells me that he can't be right 100% of the time but he goes with his own read of the game and as long as it's a firm, crisp decision, he rarely gets any flak. Coaches will always give him the benefit of the doubt. I see young ARs coming through and can tell you who will make it right off the bat. Being tall helps. Commands respect, sad but true. Dressing sharply and using firm, confident body language is also crucial (at any age). If your kid can be super-serious and give it full attention, they will be a great ref and can make good money. A sense of humor and a rapport with the players helps too. The players will usually tell their nutjob parents to shut up when they have a ref they want to keep happy. But don't have them do it just to make the money, it's not easy. You have to love the game, watch it all the time, be really good at FIFA (ok that's not essential but it's great for anticipation) be as fast as the players and ideally play well yourself. The kids know. They can spot it a mile off. Starts with the cleats. Show up in a pair of serious black cleats that you know how to use and they will know. Hope that helps. If you think your kid might be sloppy, leave their shirt untucked and not stand to attention on the sidelines, with full focus, I'd give it a miss.PS: Not being hostile, I also have one kid who would be that second category and he would hate this job.

Thank you for driving every where he has had to go to be a referee! Your support of him has been a huge difference! He must have poise and do a great job! Our young referees are the future and we need more like him.



its nice posts like these last two that take all the fun out of trolling!!! smile



So I see a very informative parent explaining how his HS son is able to bring in $500.00 on weekends. For a go getter this pretty good money. Putting aside the parental And coach BS I find it hard to believe that we can’t find more people willing to earn this kind of money. Maybe the marketing to get new refs needs to focus more on potential earnings available. How about setting up a system that guarantees reasonable travel for refs with 3 game minimum at the facilty? Most leagues tend to run back to back to back games by each age group, maybe pay higher ref fees for single match coverage. Btw, i have attended 100’s of matches and don’t see the abuse being so magnified. Honestly all my kids stated that they never heard much crowd noise as they say on the field you can’t hear much. Why do the refs hear so much if they are focused on the match? Seems some refs are looking for a reason to interact with parents and coaches rather then ingnore the outside noise. Just my opinion.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/12/20 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I checked this topic because my 14 year old was thinking about doing the referee course to make some money. Wow. Larry, you think you could not post the nonsense that "adults" post and maybe keep the content on topic just a little bit. I can't imagine sending my 14 year old to deal with these nutjobs on the sidelines for anything less than $100 an hour.


As the parent of a young ref who started at 13 as an AR and now makes $500 a weekend as a CR while still in high school, I can tell you it's a greasy pole and your 14 year old will need a strong personality to get through it. Mine tells me that he can't be right 100% of the time but he goes with his own read of the game and as long as it's a firm, crisp decision, he rarely gets any flak. Coaches will always give him the benefit of the doubt. I see young ARs coming through and can tell you who will make it right off the bat. Being tall helps. Commands respect, sad but true. Dressing sharply and using firm, confident body language is also crucial (at any age). If your kid can be super-serious and give it full attention, they will be a great ref and can make good money. A sense of humor and a rapport with the players helps too. The players will usually tell their nutjob parents to shut up when they have a ref they want to keep happy. But don't have them do it just to make the money, it's not easy. You have to love the game, watch it all the time, be really good at FIFA (ok that's not essential but it's great for anticipation) be as fast as the players and ideally play well yourself. The kids know. They can spot it a mile off. Starts with the cleats. Show up in a pair of serious black cleats that you know how to use and they will know. Hope that helps. If you think your kid might be sloppy, leave their shirt untucked and not stand to attention on the sidelines, with full focus, I'd give it a miss.PS: Not being hostile, I also have one kid who would be that second category and he would hate this job.

Thank you for driving every where he has had to go to be a referee! Your support of him has been a huge difference! He must have poise and do a great job! Our young referees are the future and we need more like him.



its nice posts like these last two that take all the fun out of trolling!!! smile



So I see a very informative parent explaining how his HS son is able to bring in $500.00 on weekends. For a go getter this pretty good money. Putting aside the parental And coach BS I find it hard to believe that we can’t find more people willing to earn this kind of money. Maybe the marketing to get new refs needs to focus more on potential earnings available. How about setting up a system that guarantees reasonable travel for refs with 3 game minimum at the facilty? Most leagues tend to run back to back to back games by each age group, maybe pay higher ref fees for single match coverage. Btw, i have attended 100’s of matches and don’t see the abuse being so magnified. Honestly all my kids stated that they never heard much crowd noise as they say on the field you can’t hear much. Why do the refs hear so much if they are focused on the match? Seems some refs are looking for a reason to interact with parents and coaches rather then ingnore the outside noise. Just my opinion.


I monitor at least 4 or 5 games a weekend within my club. Coaches and especially parents are seriously out of control. This is not a matter of the refs being too sensitive.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/12/20 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
So I see a very informative parent explaining how his HS son is able to bring in $500.00 on weekends. For a go getter this pretty good money. Putting aside the parental And coach BS I find it hard to believe that we can’t find more people willing to earn this kind of money. Maybe the marketing to get new refs needs to focus more on potential earnings available. How about setting up a system that guarantees reasonable travel for refs with 3 game minimum at the facilty? Most leagues tend to run back to back to back games by each age group, maybe pay higher ref fees for single match coverage. Btw, i have attended 100’s of matches and don’t see the abuse being so magnified. Honestly all my kids stated that they never heard much crowd noise as they say on the field you can’t hear much. Why do the refs hear so much if they are focused on the match? Seems some refs are looking for a reason to interact with parents and coaches rather then ingnore the outside noise. Just my opinion.


Because this kind of money is the exception not the rule. Someone has to be AR (pays half). You touched on when there's only a small number of games. If you're busy with a lot of other stuff, you can't do enough games to make it worth the costs even if you're good and you like doing it. And really, the best refs have other stuff going on - there's a reason some refs are ALWAYS available.

Also, the abuse, you can't think of it like they're getting heckled in pro sports. It's the psycho parents literally attacking refs for ruining their child's future that means all the refs have to be on guard at all times. Sometimes ignoring it just means the parents escalate until they get the reaction they want. If your team behaves, you might only see something bad once or twice per season. But if a ref is doing 10+ teams each weekend, the odds are pretty good something will happen and several times per year will be stuff that would get people arrested in any other setting.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/12/20 06:13 PM
referees should where ear plugs...problem solved!!!!!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/12/20 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
referees should where ear plugs...problem solved!!!!!


Parents should wear duct tape... problem really solved!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/12/20 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
referees should where ear plugs...problem solved!!!!!


referees should just decide they'd rather do better things with their weekend than putting up with your crap for peanuts they don't need...problem solved!!!!!!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/13/20 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
referees should where ear plugs...problem solved!!!!!


Parents should wear duct tape... problem really solved!!!!!!!!!!!


now you are being a bit ridiculous, don't you think? smile
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/13/20 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
referees should where ear plugs...problem solved!!!!!


Parents should wear duct tape... problem really solved!!!!!!!!!!!


now you are being a bit ridiculous, don't you think? smile


I recall there used to be a thing called Players Weekend where the parents were required to keep their mouths shut and could only clap and cheer good play. No coaching or mouthing off to referees allowed. That should be brought back. Let's be honest, 90% of the parents don't know the laws of the game anyway so they should be silent. Is the game about them or the kids anyway.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/13/20 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
referees should where ear plugs...problem solved!!!!!


Parents should wear duct tape... problem really solved!!!!!!!!!!!


now you are being a bit ridiculous, don't you think? smile


I recall there used to be a thing called Players Weekend where the parents were required to keep their mouths shut and could only clap and cheer good play. No coaching or mouthing off to referees allowed. That should be brought back. Let's be honest, 90% of the parents don't know the laws of the game anyway so they should be silent. Is the game about them or the kids anyway.


its about the fans....If it were not for the fans...none of us would be here right now. we are all fans here right? The fans ultimately pay for everything right? where does US soccer get there money? when games are played on tv who pays for the broadcasting if there was no market (the fans) to tune in? sorry amigo, its all about the fans, always has been always will be!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/13/20 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
referees should where ear plugs...problem solved!!!!!


Parents should wear duct tape... problem really solved!!!!!!!!!!!


now you are being a bit ridiculous, don't you think? smile


I recall there used to be a thing called Players Weekend where the parents were required to keep their mouths shut and could only clap and cheer good play. No coaching or mouthing off to referees allowed. That should be brought back. Let's be honest, 90% of the parents don't know the laws of the game anyway so they should be silent. Is the game about them or the kids anyway.


its about the fans....If it were not for the fans...none of us would be here right now. we are all fans here right? The fans ultimately pay for everything right? where does US soccer get there money? when games are played on tv who pays for the broadcasting if there was no market (the fans) to tune in? sorry amigo, its all about the fans, always has been always will be!!!!!!!!


What happened to signing your kid up so they can make friends and learn sportsmanship?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/13/20 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
referees should where ear plugs...problem solved!!!!!


Parents should wear duct tape... problem really solved!!!!!!!!!!!


now you are being a bit ridiculous, don't you think? smile


I recall there used to be a thing called Players Weekend where the parents were required to keep their mouths shut and could only clap and cheer good play. No coaching or mouthing off to referees allowed. That should be brought back. Let's be honest, 90% of the parents don't know the laws of the game anyway so they should be silent. Is the game about them or the kids anyway.


its about the fans....If it were not for the fans...none of us would be here right now. we are all fans here right? The fans ultimately pay for everything right? where does US soccer get there money? when games are played on tv who pays for the broadcasting if there was no market (the fans) to tune in? sorry amigo, its all about the fans, always has been always will be!!!!!!!!


I 100% disagree. Youth sports is about the kids, not the fans. Fans of youth sports are supposed to go to the games and cheer the kids on, not coach them or berate referees, coaches, other players or each other. This thread is about youth sports not pro sports amigo. Get with the program!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/13/20 05:06 PM
thats a very noble statement and (very high horse of you) but the harsh reality is that soccer is a multi billion dollar industry that is ultimately and fully supported by the paying fans. Where would fc barcelona be if nobody was interested? where whould the USWNT be if nobody was interested? How much soccer would be shown on tv if nobody was interested? Its crazy to fathom is it not? I will tell you, if it were not for the fans soccer would be as popular as curling (if you don't know what "curling" is its an olympic sport, google it).

People want to be entertained and everyone is stimulated differently. In closing, YOUTH Sports has never ever been about the kids....its about $$$$ and the paying fans.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/13/20 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
thats a very noble statement and (very high horse of you) but the harsh reality is that soccer is a multi billion dollar industry that is ultimately and fully supported by the paying fans. Where would fc barcelona be if nobody was interested? where whould the USWNT be if nobody was interested? How much soccer would be shown on tv if nobody was interested? Its crazy to fathom is it not? I will tell you, if it were not for the fans soccer would be as popular as curling (if you don't know what "curling" is its an olympic sport, google it).

People want to be entertained and everyone is stimulated differently. In closing, YOUTH Sports has never ever been about the kids....its about $$$$ and the paying fans.


Sorry you're still completely wrong and I do not know how you come up with the "high horse" comment. People like you who buy into that its a billion dollar industry and I'm entitled to act like an a**hole because I pay for my kids training are prostituting kids for their entertainment. I'm perfectly entertained watching my son's play at a high level without acting like an idiot because I'm entitled too and it's a billion dollar industry. Again the word youth meaning not pro and still in HS and younger!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/13/20 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
thats a very noble statement and (very high horse of you) but the harsh reality is that soccer is a multi billion dollar industry that is ultimately and fully supported by the paying fans. Where would fc barcelona be if nobody was interested? where whould the USWNT be if nobody was interested? How much soccer would be shown on tv if nobody was interested? Its crazy to fathom is it not? I will tell you, if it were not for the fans soccer would be as popular as curling (if you don't know what "curling" is its an olympic sport, google it).

People want to be entertained and everyone is stimulated differently. In closing, YOUTH Sports has never ever been about the kids....its about $$$$ and the paying fans.



This is a thread about referee shortage solutions on Long Island.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/13/20 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
thats a very noble statement and (very high horse of you) but the harsh reality is that soccer is a multi billion dollar industry that is ultimately and fully supported by the paying fans. Where would fc barcelona be if nobody was interested? where whould the USWNT be if nobody was interested? How much soccer would be shown on tv if nobody was interested? Its crazy to fathom is it not? I will tell you, if it were not for the fans soccer would be as popular as curling (if you don't know what "curling" is its an olympic sport, google it).

People want to be entertained and everyone is stimulated differently. In closing, YOUTH Sports has never ever been about the kids....its about $$$$ and the paying fans.



This is a thread about referee shortage solutions on Long Island.


Agreed and to provide a solution we need to understand and fix the problems. One of the problems is people that think like this guy.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/13/20 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
thats a very noble statement and (very high horse of you) but the harsh reality is that soccer is a multi billion dollar industry that is ultimately and fully supported by the paying fans. Where would fc barcelona be if nobody was interested? where whould the USWNT be if nobody was interested? How much soccer would be shown on tv if nobody was interested? Its crazy to fathom is it not? I will tell you, if it were not for the fans soccer would be as popular as curling (if you don't know what "curling" is its an olympic sport, google it).

People want to be entertained and everyone is stimulated differently. In closing, YOUTH Sports has never ever been about the kids....its about $$$$ and the paying fans.



This is a thread about referee shortage solutions on Long Island.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/13/20 07:11 PM
correct but the OP here has a problem differentiating his love for the game, His luv for refereeing (for which he needs to be paid more $$$ for???!!!!) all under the guise and BS that it is all for the Children....
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/13/20 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I hope my kids team never ever ever wins the "sportsmanship award"!!!!!!!


Ignorance is not bliss, you just proved it. Here’s why you are clueless. If you meant to be funny, you’re not. If you don’t want your kid to win the award you’re part of the problem.

When I referee a game and I see a LIJSL team with a Sportsmanship Patch I congratulate them because as a former coach I know how difficult it is to win that award. The team that wears that patch is always such a nice fun team to work with and it all starts with the right coach. He or she is usually a very nice sporting person and an absolute pleasure.

How do I know how difficult it is to win the Sportsmanship Patch? When I coached we won it ONCE. That was it. Now you supposed tough guys out there think getting trophies and awards create a “snowflake” culture. This is not a participation award. This is an award based on ratings of the players, coaches and spectators. This is not about winning either. While it has happened it is not usually the first place team that wins the award. Which should tell us something about the team’s character. They may not win a championship but they will show class every game of the season. It’s not corny, it’s real.



every time i read your pathetic posts for some reason i hear a violin playing in the background, every time....would you like some cheese with that whine?...buttercup.


Says the guy posting under ANONYMOUS. Put your name out here big boy. We know you peaked in 12th grade and haven't grown up a bit since so you need to act like Mr Tough Guy. If you coach...your kids hate you. If you're a parent...your kid hates you if this is your public attitude or just your keyboard courage showing. But you're a winner...right? Grow up


I have a national championship in my trophy case, my kids aspire to earn there own.....what is your excuse? you criticise others and say to your own kids "its ok timmy, your feelings matter and we are just so proud of your 5th place medal...don't worry we will go get a slurpy now"....you are just so pathetic, I would eat you, my kids would eat your own as well....you are worthless, pathetic and weak.


Thanks for proving my point. It's all about YOU and how tough YOU are and YOUR kids are. Again...you peaked in HS. Probably never played a day after in anything meaningful.

You would eat me....you would eat me. grin that might be the most ridiculous thing ever posted here by an insecure child.

Go home, fire up Springsteen's Glory Days and relive them.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/13/20 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
correct but the OP here has a problem differentiating his love for the game, His luv for refereeing (for which he needs to be paid more $$$ for???!!!!) all under the guise and BS that it is all for the Children....

They’re your children. If you’re not willing to volunteer to do the game before or after yours, pay up.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/13/20 09:22 PM
......Go home, fire up Springsteen's Glory Days and relive them.

I'm still competitive, are you? (fyi, we both know you are not) You can keep shining your own sportsmanship awards if it makes you happy!!!!! quit your belly aching, you sound pathetic and weak....wimp.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/14/20 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
correct but the OP here has a problem differentiating his love for the game, His luv for refereeing (for which he needs to be paid more $$$ for???!!!!) all under the guise and BS that it is all for the Children....


Professor clueless the original poster is being mischaracterized as usual. Nobody is talking about participation trophies, youth soccer is allowed to be competitive and at the highest levels and many levels it is and that’s all good. It’s also ok to make money on it we are in America aren’t we?

This particular subject is about getting more referees for the future and actually the present also because the current attrition rate will not be able to support the demands in many parts of our country especially the NY Metropolitan area and all of it’s suburbs.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/14/20 01:42 PM
People should stick to the purpose of the thread which is about referee shortage solutions. The stupidity out of some of the clueless parents out there who post utter garbage makes this thread almost as bad as the B2010 and B2004 threads. Offer up some good ideas, thoughts and suggestions and stop the attacks on people who post something that required insight and intelligent thoughts.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/16/20 01:35 AM
I thought this topic was about referee shortages? Instead it has turned into what all posts on this site has become. A place for people to spew venom and call out others for their stupid and ridiculous thoughts. Keep to the topic. I will say this... referees spend countless hours away from their families working games all over Long Island for which they are subject to outright verbal and sometimes physical abuse from adults who simply cant sit tight and enjoy a YOUTH REC SOCCER GAME!! This is not the world cup folks and until that penetrates your thick skulls referees will continue to quit. It used to be that would you rather work at McDonalds making minimum wage or instead be outside being a part of the game you enjoy and getting paid for it. Well, today most kids would rather work at McDonalds than have to deal with the abuse that goes on. Until the conduct of the parents and coaches comes to a screeching halt there will never be an answer to this problem.

Simply put... go enjoy yourself no matter what type of referee you have... good or bad. In the scope of things no one is going to care a month later. One day you are going to find yourselves at your game where no referees are available and then will complain why.... look inwards folks and try to be a part of the solution, not the problem.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/16/20 03:48 AM
The abuse is only a tiny part of the problem.
Adults don't feel the need to basically volunteer or "give back" when it's soccer as a consumer product not soccer as a community activity.
Adults that need secondary income can now do uber, amazon, and all the other gig stuff.
Teenagers spend all day traveling to play regular season games two states away and use their free time for the 8,000 community services hours, 50 clubs, and 10 AP classes it takes to get into college.
So the supply is WAY smaller even though the demand is WAY higher. What does economics 101 tell us?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/17/20 01:10 PM
Wag wah wah! Ref a good game and you won’t have problems! Refs ref poorly and have poor leadership is only reason they get a hard time! The leagues and LISRA are failing and a big change is required in leadership!
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/18/20 02:56 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Wag wah wah! Ref a good game and you won’t have problems! Refs ref poorly and have poor leadership is only reason they get a hard time! The leagues and LISRA are failing and a big change is required in leadership!


Wah Wah yourself, I welcome you to certify as a referee since you think it’s so easy. But the best part is that you think it’s ok to give referees a hard time if they make a mistake-News Flash, even the best world class referees have been known to make mistakes even in the biggest matches like the World Cup! It is people like you that continue to prove the premise of this forum, the referee shortage is exacerbated by people like you that think it’s ok to give referees a hard time even though you have no real knowledge of the Laws of the Game!

Easy to criticize others but what are you doing for the game????
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/18/20 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
The abuse is only a tiny part of the problem.
Adults don't feel the need to basically volunteer or "give back" when it's soccer as a consumer product not soccer as a community activity.
Adults that need secondary income can now do uber, amazon, and all the other gig stuff.
Teenagers spend all day traveling to play regular season games two states away and use their free time for the 8,000 community services hours, 50 clubs, and 10 AP classes it takes to get into college.
So the supply is WAY smaller even though the demand is WAY higher. What does economics 101 tell us?



Agreed. Also, maybe not Econ 101 but there are broadly three kinds of ref: 1) Young refs who enjoy the work and the money, 2) older refs who enjoy the work and don't need the money and 3) older refs who need the money, regardless of whether they enjoy it or not. A lack of recruitment effort leaves us desperately short of the first group and an increase in game-time hostility plus an incompetent bureaucracy is deterring the second group. When all we are left with is group three, it's a slippery slope. Ye reap what ye sow. When we scream at the refs that they should do what we want them to because they are being paid for it, all you'll get is group three. Good luck with that.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/19/20 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
The abuse is only a tiny part of the problem.
Adults don't feel the need to basically volunteer or "give back" when it's soccer as a consumer product not soccer as a community activity.
Adults that need secondary income can now do uber, amazon, and all the other gig stuff.
Teenagers spend all day traveling to play regular season games two states away and use their free time for the 8,000 community services hours, 50 clubs, and 10 AP classes it takes to get into college.
So the supply is WAY smaller even though the demand is WAY higher. What does economics 101 tell us?



Agreed. Also, maybe not Econ 101 but there are broadly three kinds of ref: 1) Young refs who enjoy the work and the money, 2) older refs who enjoy the work and don't need the money and 3) older refs who need the money, regardless of whether they enjoy it or not. A lack of recruitment effort leaves us desperately short of the first group and an increase in game-time hostility plus an incompetent bureaucracy is deterring the second group. When all we are left with is group three, it's a slippery slope. Ye reap what ye sow. When we scream at the refs that they should do what we want them to because they are being paid for it, all you'll get is group three. Good luck with that.



what about young refs who simply need the work and the money (and simply don't care either way)?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/19/20 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
The abuse is only a tiny part of the problem.
Adults don't feel the need to basically volunteer or "give back" when it's soccer as a consumer product not soccer as a community activity.
Adults that need secondary income can now do uber, amazon, and all the other gig stuff.
Teenagers spend all day traveling to play regular season games two states away and use their free time for the 8,000 community services hours, 50 clubs, and 10 AP classes it takes to get into college.
So the supply is WAY smaller even though the demand is WAY higher. What does economics 101 tell us?



Agreed. Also, maybe not Econ 101 but there are broadly three kinds of ref: 1) Young refs who enjoy the work and the money, 2) older refs who enjoy the work and don't need the money and 3) older refs who need the money, regardless of whether they enjoy it or not. A lack of recruitment effort leaves us desperately short of the first group and an increase in game-time hostility plus an incompetent bureaucracy is deterring the second group. When all we are left with is group three, it's a slippery slope. Ye reap what ye sow. When we scream at the refs that they should do what we want them to because they are being paid for it, all you'll get is group three. Good luck with that.



what about young refs who simply need the work and the money (and simply don't care either way)?


They go out and do whatever they want because they know they can't get fired because there's no one to replace them.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/19/20 06:05 PM
Just wondering why soccer parents think it's okay to abuse referees of any age. I sit at my kids little league baseball and CYO basketball games. If you get abusive to the umpire of referee it's not allowed. High school has sportsmanship rules in place as well. Why is Soccer different then the others. Just a question?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/19/20 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Just wondering why soccer parents think it's okay to abuse referees of any age. I sit at my kids little league baseball and CYO basketball games. If you get abusive to the umpire of referee it's not allowed. High school has sportsmanship rules in place as well. Why is Soccer different then the others. Just a question?


Unfortunately soccer is no different than other sports. I sat at my nephews Little League Baseball game and the abuse a teenage ump was receiving from one teams coach and the parents was horrendous. Not only is behavior like this discouraging refs from signing up it is ruining youth sports as a whole.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/19/20 07:18 PM
people are fans of the game...does not matter the activity or the level of play...fans want their team to WIN.

I'm not condoning abuse of referees just making this statement....People are people....If you are going to put on a Referees uniform, expect this to happen....tune out the negativity, do the best job you can and collect your money....Just like any thing else anyone does in life...If you let negativity get to you, it will always bring you down....just let it go.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/19/20 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
people are fans of the game...does not matter the activity or the level of play...fans want their team to WIN.

I'm not condoning abuse of referees just making this statement....People are people....If you are going to put on a Referees uniform, expect this to happen....tune out the negativity, do the best job you can and collect your money....Just like any thing else anyone does in life...If you let negativity get to you, it will always bring you down....just let it go.


Let it go, let it go.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=parents+attack+referee
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/20/20 03:23 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
The abuse is only a tiny part of the problem.
Adults don't feel the need to basically volunteer or "give back" when it's soccer as a consumer product not soccer as a community activity.
Adults that need secondary income can now do uber, amazon, and all the other gig stuff.
Teenagers spend all day traveling to play regular season games two states away and use their free time for the 8,000 community services hours, 50 clubs, and 10 AP classes it takes to get into college.
So the supply is WAY smaller even though the demand is WAY higher. What does economics 101 tell us?



Agreed. Also, maybe not Econ 101 but there are broadly three kinds of ref: 1) Young refs who enjoy the work and the money, 2) older refs who enjoy the work and don't need the money and 3) older refs who need the money, regardless of whether they enjoy it or not. A lack of recruitment effort leaves us desperately short of the first group and an increase in game-time hostility plus an incompetent bureaucracy is deterring the second group. When all we are left with is group three, it's a slippery slope. Ye reap what ye sow. When we scream at the refs that they should do what we want them to because they are being paid for it, all you'll get is group three. Good luck with that.



what about young refs who simply need the work and the money (and simply don't care either way)?


They go out and do whatever they want because they know they can't get fired because there's no one to replace them.


The idea that a young referee who has the courage to work as a Center Referee and not care about their performance is so wrong and off the mark. Firstly if you make any major mistakes during a game and it gets reported that referee will get lower level assignments. We Referees attend meetings and clinics and are often chastised for the mistakes of others so that we do not make the same mistakes. The idea with that ANY referee would step on a field and not care about their performance is ridiculous!
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/20/20 05:38 AM
This is what’s wrong with a lot of youth soccer. I need to add some comments about OUR CHILDREN REFEREES! Yes the kids that we have in our community that become referees. This is usually a huge emotional Investment and time consuming activity for boys and girls 13-17. Many, many start as referees in their intramural town leagues and have usually been playing since their clinic days at 4 years old. They all vary. They are strikers, defense, midfielders and have played all sorts of positions growing with the game. They love the game and that is why they become referees. But here’s what they do.

I have had 2 15 year old ARs work a U19 game with me and while they are among the most experienced ARs they are able to keep up with the attack and stay with the second to last defender every step of the game. They may not be as fast as the players but as officials they are SMART. Because they can see the attack forming and predict when they will need to hustle and anticipate enough to stay with the action and be RIGHT there to make the offside call. Even the best ARs can make mistakes and I have overridden them very rarely if they get it wrong either way.
But when and if they make a mistake if it happens in the first half I need to have a good talk with them because they get so upset that I have to make sure they let it go. So for any adult to think that any young referee would not care about their performance is just utter nonsense.
Folks these are great kids doing a tough job in a sometimes hostile environment. Try and visualize that child as your own when you see them out there. When they are beat up verbally by adults the players will soon do the same as they have permission to do so. Here’s what most people don’t get. There are 3 teams on the field NOT 2. Those young referees are on my team so I let them know before every game that the second they hear any abuse directed towards them if they think I cannot hear it they need to tell me immediately so that I can immediately take care it.

The idea that youth players are not expected to be perfect but youth referees are is illogical. Our children referees deserve your support and a little compassion.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/20/20 01:48 PM
When you use the word "compassion" do you actually mean "wet nursing"?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/20/20 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
The abuse is only a tiny part of the problem.
Adults don't feel the need to basically volunteer or "give back" when it's soccer as a consumer product not soccer as a community activity.
Adults that need secondary income can now do uber, amazon, and all the other gig stuff.
Teenagers spend all day traveling to play regular season games two states away and use their free time for the 8,000 community services hours, 50 clubs, and 10 AP classes it takes to get into college.
So the supply is WAY smaller even though the demand is WAY higher. What does economics 101 tell us?



Agreed. Also, maybe not Econ 101 but there are broadly three kinds of ref: 1) Young refs who enjoy the work and the money, 2) older refs who enjoy the work and don't need the money and 3) older refs who need the money, regardless of whether they enjoy it or not. A lack of recruitment effort leaves us desperately short of the first group and an increase in game-time hostility plus an incompetent bureaucracy is deterring the second group. When all we are left with is group three, it's a slippery slope. Ye reap what ye sow. When we scream at the refs that they should do what we want them to because they are being paid for it, all you'll get is group three. Good luck with that.



what about young refs who simply need the work and the money (and simply don't care either way)?


They go out and do whatever they want because they know they can't get fired because there's no one to replace them.


The idea that a young referee who has the courage to work as a Center Referee and not care about their performance is so wrong and off the mark. Firstly if you make any major mistakes during a game and it gets reported that referee will get lower level assignments. We Referees attend meetings and clinics and are often chastised for the mistakes of others so that we do not make the same mistakes. The idea with that ANY referee would step on a field and not care about their performance is ridiculous!


You are obviously a Big Shot referee that does games in a Bubble not a referee working the lower tier games, an assignor, or a club administrator. The idea that there aren't people being used that are bad, don't care, and even say they don't have to improve because they can't be replaced is laughable. And the reality is that the people that could actually provide the resources to fix it would rather just say "Ear Plugs!" so they can have cheap referees to pocket extra profits while scapegoating the assignors and referee associations for not being able to do more with what little they have to work with.
Posted By: Larry Miller Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/20/20 03:08 PM
After reading all these folks bitching about the quality of referees, if I was in charge of the refs I would tell them to sit out this Spring season. No refs=no games. Maybe that will calm you folks down and give you time to reconsider your rudeness.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/20/20 03:13 PM
you may have a valid and good idea...but games will ultimately happen with parent volunteers to referee.
Perhaps then the remaining people on the sidelines will think twice about yelling out anything negative towards the volunteer referees.
Posted By: Larry Miller Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/20/20 03:20 PM
STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE
Posted By: Larry Miller Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/20/20 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
you may have a valid and good idea...but games will ultimately happen with parent volunteers to referee.
Perhaps then the remaining people on the sidelines will think twice about yelling out anything negative towards the volunteer referees.


I'm not clear on the rules, but I think starting at a certain age the refs have to be certified...parents wont do the trick. Can someone comment on this?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/20/20 04:09 PM
IDK but if we are thinking hypothetically if referees would strike....than obviously rules would have to be waved and or bent.
The show must go on right?

I don't think any teams or coaches would object to a parent volunteer to ref a game. or a volunteer to ref the first half and the other teams parent refs the 2nd half.

what would the referees union do? put up a big inflatable rat at a kids soccer game?
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/20/20 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
After reading all these folks bitching about the quality of referees, if I was in charge of the refs I would tell them to sit out this Spring season. No refs=no games. Maybe that will calm you folks down and give you time to reconsider your rudeness.


Larry you make a good point, but that will never happen because of a few reasons. Most of the participants appreciate referees. It is the minority that attempts to ruin it for the rest of us. As for the immature and spineless anonymous trolls that post their ignorant childish remarks and contribute ZERO to this discussion (that are probably still being “Wet nursed” themselves) they don’t call the shots. They mostly get ignored or sanctioned at the soccer field. That is why I will not respond to their stupid nonsense on this forum as they try to stir the pot.

As for an actual “strike” what many many people here do not realize is that referees are such a diverse group of people, it would be as difficult to herd cats as it would be to get referees to agree to strike, just my opinion.

But the diversity of referees is so rich as far as ethnicity, socioeconomic standing and main profession. Getting all to agree on anything would be quite challenging, just my opinion.

As far as parent replacements for referees that do not show you are correct Larry, here’s an excerpt from the LIJSL Rulebook-other leagues also have similar rules-

Part 9. If the Referee Fails to Appear If a Referee should fail to appear for a U9-U12 scheduled match, the Adult Supervisors of the competing teams must agree upon a volunteer to substitute for the Referee. The substitute need not be a certified Referee. The substitute must officiate the complete match. If the U9-U12 teams do not agree on a volunteer referee both teams will be charged with a forfeit and the decision cannot be protested. The substitute Referee shall have those prerogatives granted to him/her by the ‘Laws of the Game’, as published by FIFA and amended by the LIJSL. Games played with a volunteer referee cannot be protested.

Of course these rules could be changed if they had trouble staffing referees for games because the youth soccer industrial complex must go on and generate revenue!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/20/20 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
......Go home, fire up Springsteen's Glory Days and relive them.

I'm still competitive, are you? (fyi, we both know you are not) You can keep shining your own sportsmanship awards if it makes you happy!!!!! quit your belly aching, you sound pathetic and weak....wimp.

lol. Ever broken a collarbone and finished the remaining 14 minutes of a game? Didn't think so.

Competitive.....uh yeah. I still play hockey in a league of 20 somethings I'm 46. Still about the best goalie out there.

Pathetic and weak. bwahahaha....Ok Neidermeyer. Come to the gym with me, you wont last 10 minutes, that's a guarantee.

Anywho...on refereeing it's the same in hockey as it is in soccer due to chuckleheads like meathead marinara here. Solutions are ZERO tolerance. 100% support from the leagues and orgs to penalize stiffly(I'm the large fines guy from earlier in the thread) any parent or coach who gets a red card.

Before Meathead here wants to try, in vain to shoot me down, I have been fielding calls from the head ref in the state to work the highest level games here on the Island over this coming weekend. Yeah, I'm still competitive at that too.

One benefit us hockey guys have over the soccer officials is the dumbasses don't have direct access to us. The glass and boards filters out a lot. Sadly chuckleheads can simply walk on the field or go after you after a game. Feel for my soccer official brothers and sisters. Keep up the good work guys. I've rarely seen a bad game from y'all and I've been on the coach's side and parents side for the last 8 years.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/21/20 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
......Go home, fire up Springsteen's Glory Days and relive them.

I'm still competitive, are you? (fyi, we both know you are not) You can keep shining your own sportsmanship awards if it makes you happy!!!!! quit your belly aching, you sound pathetic and weak....wimp.

lol. Ever broken a collarbone and finished the remaining 14 minutes of a game? Didn't think so.

Competitive.....uh yeah. I still play hockey in a league of 20 somethings I'm 46. Still about the best goalie out there.

Pathetic and weak. bwahahaha....Ok Neidermeyer. Come to the gym with me, you wont last 10 minutes, that's a guarantee.

Anywho...on refereeing it's the same in hockey as it is in soccer due to chuckleheads like meathead marinara here. Solutions are ZERO tolerance. 100% support from the leagues and orgs to penalize stiffly(I'm the large fines guy from earlier in the thread) any parent or coach who gets a red card.

Before Meathead here wants to try, in vain to shoot me down, I have been fielding calls from the head ref in the state to work the highest level games here on the Island over this coming weekend. Yeah, I'm still competitive at that too.

One benefit us hockey guys have over the soccer officials is the dumbasses don't have direct access to us. The glass and boards filters out a lot. Sadly chuckleheads can simply walk on the field or go after you after a game. Feel for my soccer official brothers and sisters. Keep up the good work guys. I've rarely seen a bad game from y'all and I've been on the coach's side and parents side for the last 8 years.


a broken collarbone? really? you are fkg kidding right? and you want a medal for standing around as the goalie on a hockey team? In a real sport, I have gotten the sh_t kicked out of me by people from other countries on a world stage, gotten a concussion and still win the match. I have been knocked out and still continued, I have had my knee popped out and cont. competing, fingers dislocated and put back in place and continued....and you whine about a p_ssy collarbone standing around as a fkg goalie?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/21/20 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
......Go home, fire up Springsteen's Glory Days and relive them.

I'm still competitive, are you? (fyi, we both know you are not) You can keep shining your own sportsmanship awards if it makes you happy!!!!! quit your belly aching, you sound pathetic and weak....wimp.

lol. Ever broken a collarbone and finished the remaining 14 minutes of a game? Didn't think so.

Competitive.....uh yeah. I still play hockey in a league of 20 somethings I'm 46. Still about the best goalie out there.

Pathetic and weak. bwahahaha....Ok Neidermeyer. Come to the gym with me, you wont last 10 minutes, that's a guarantee.

Anywho...on refereeing it's the same in hockey as it is in soccer due to chuckleheads like meathead marinara here. Solutions are ZERO tolerance. 100% support from the leagues and orgs to penalize stiffly(I'm the large fines guy from earlier in the thread) any parent or coach who gets a red card.

Before Meathead here wants to try, in vain to shoot me down, I have been fielding calls from the head ref in the state to work the highest level games here on the Island over this coming weekend. Yeah, I'm still competitive at that too.

One benefit us hockey guys have over the soccer officials is the dumbasses don't have direct access to us. The glass and boards filters out a lot. Sadly chuckleheads can simply walk on the field or go after you after a game. Feel for my soccer official brothers and sisters. Keep up the good work guys. I've rarely seen a bad game from y'all and I've been on the coach's side and parents side for the last 8 years.


a broken collarbone? really? you are fkg kidding right? and you want a medal for standing around as the goalie on a hockey team? In a real sport, I have gotten the sh_t kicked out of me by people from other countries on a world stage, gotten a concussion and still win the match. I have been knocked out and still continued, I have had my knee popped out and cont. competing, fingers dislocated and put back in place and continued....and you whine about a p_ssy collarbone standing around as a fkg goalie?

'standing around as a goalie'.

I'll pay you $1000 to survive 2hrs as a goalie in an NHL practice. I've done it. Best athlete on my college team tried goalie 1x. Handed me my gear back and said I'm never doing that again, hardest thing I've ever done.

Do yourself a favor and hit youtube on other athletes trying to be a hockey goalie. Or even play hockey, hint: I have played every position. It doesn't go well. Best athletes in the world. Sorry pal.

go roid rage elsewhere.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/21/20 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
......Go home, fire up Springsteen's Glory Days and relive them.

I'm still competitive, are you? (fyi, we both know you are not) You can keep shining your own sportsmanship awards if it makes you happy!!!!! quit your belly aching, you sound pathetic and weak....wimp.

lol. Ever broken a collarbone and finished the remaining 14 minutes of a game? Didn't think so.

Competitive.....uh yeah. I still play hockey in a league of 20 somethings I'm 46. Still about the best goalie out there.

Pathetic and weak. bwahahaha....Ok Neidermeyer. Come to the gym with me, you wont last 10 minutes, that's a guarantee.

Anywho...on refereeing it's the same in hockey as it is in soccer due to chuckleheads like meathead marinara here. Solutions are ZERO tolerance. 100% support from the leagues and orgs to penalize stiffly(I'm the large fines guy from earlier in the thread) any parent or coach who gets a red card.

Before Meathead here wants to try, in vain to shoot me down, I have been fielding calls from the head ref in the state to work the highest level games here on the Island over this coming weekend. Yeah, I'm still competitive at that too.

One benefit us hockey guys have over the soccer officials is the dumbasses don't have direct access to us. The glass and boards filters out a lot. Sadly chuckleheads can simply walk on the field or go after you after a game. Feel for my soccer official brothers and sisters. Keep up the good work guys. I've rarely seen a bad game from y'all and I've been on the coach's side and parents side for the last 8 years.


a broken collarbone? really? you are fkg kidding right? and you want a medal for standing around as the goalie on a hockey team? In a real sport, I have gotten the sh_t kicked out of me by people from other countries on a world stage, gotten a concussion and still win the match. I have been knocked out and still continued, I have had my knee popped out and cont. competing, fingers dislocated and put back in place and continued....and you whine about a p_ssy collarbone standing around as a fkg goalie?


I have one question for you. What is your suggested solution to the shortage of referees? All I see posted from you is your self proclaimed toughness but nothing on the fix to a very real problem.
Posted By: Larry Miller Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/21/20 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
......Go home, fire up Springsteen's Glory Days and relive them.

I'm still competitive, are you? (fyi, we both know you are not) You can keep shining your own sportsmanship awards if it makes you happy!!!!! quit your belly aching, you sound pathetic and weak....wimp.

lol. Ever broken a collarbone and finished the remaining 14 minutes of a game? Didn't think so.

Competitive.....uh yeah. I still play hockey in a league of 20 somethings I'm 46. Still about the best goalie out there.

Pathetic and weak. bwahahaha....Ok Neidermeyer. Come to the gym with me, you wont last 10 minutes, that's a guarantee.

Anywho...on refereeing it's the same in hockey as it is in soccer due to chuckleheads like meathead marinara here. Solutions are ZERO tolerance. 100% support from the leagues and orgs to penalize stiffly(I'm the large fines guy from earlier in the thread) any parent or coach who gets a red card.

Before Meathead here wants to try, in vain to shoot me down, I have been fielding calls from the head ref in the state to work the highest level games here on the Island over this coming weekend. Yeah, I'm still competitive at that too.

One benefit us hockey guys have over the soccer officials is the dumbasses don't have direct access to us. The glass and boards filters out a lot. Sadly chuckleheads can simply walk on the field or go after you after a game. Feel for my soccer official brothers and sisters. Keep up the good work guys. I've rarely seen a bad game from y'all and I've been on the coach's side and parents side for the last 8 years.


a broken collarbone? really? you are fkg kidding right? and you want a medal for standing around as the goalie on a hockey team? In a real sport, I have gotten the sh_t kicked out of me by people from other countries on a world stage, gotten a concussion and still win the match. I have been knocked out and still continued, I have had my knee popped out and cont. competing, fingers dislocated and put back in place and continued....and you whine about a p_ssy collarbone standing around as a fkg goalie?


I have one question for you. What is your suggested solution to the shortage of referees? All I see posted from you is your self proclaimed toughness but nothing on the fix to a very real problem.


I think the problem as you call it was addressed numerous times...maybe you need to read all that has been written. Clearly there are issues and they were brought up. As for me, I think the refs should sit out for a season until (1) parents understand that refs are not indentured servants, and (2) that ENY who oversees the refs change their ways, also (3) make it more affordable by slicing the upfront investment to be come a ref.

I know that LI Ref does not agree with my draconian "strike" idea, but just miss one season or even 2 or 3 weeks with a no refs, which means no games should be a religious experience for all involved.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/21/20 08:43 PM
It’s not that I disagree with “striking” it’s that I don’t think it would be that effective and successful as there would not be 100% participation and the effort would not be united as there are many many referees that really need the money.
Referees are an independent type of group and unanimity would be non existent. Just my opinion.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/21/20 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
It’s not that I disagree with “striking” it’s that I don’t think it would be that effective and successful as there would not be 100% participation and the effort would not be united as there are many many referees that really need the money.
Referees are an independent type of group and unanimity would be non existent. Just my opinion.


Is there a referees union?
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/22/20 12:25 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
It’s not that I disagree with “striking” it’s that I don’t think it would be that effective and successful as there would not be 100% participation and the effort would not be united as there are many many referees that really need the money.
Referees are an independent type of group and unanimity would be non existent. Just my opinion.


Is there a referees union?


Not below the professional ranks. We are considered independent contractors and are not represented by a collective bargaining unit. It could prove difficult to organize a union if there was any interest in doing so.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/22/20 02:06 AM
I am well in agreement with Larry's suggestion. Although I would say do it for a weekend... perhaps two and then lets see how behavior changes. When no referees show up to any games perhaps that will get the point across that enough is enough. Stop acting like childlish brats and simply enjoy the game.... win or lose!!!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/22/20 07:55 AM
I was reffing a game once in northshore and I had a pal on the line, well we were getting so much Abuse from these two particular guys that we were concerned for our safety. Now after the game I said to my friend let's deal with this as if we were in a parking lot in Home Depot. So as were walking to our car these two ...holes started in with the abuse. Well me and my friend both from Europe originally, adressed the situation the way we would in every day life, and rather than running and cowering to our car, I said come on then lets ....ing go I'll put you in the ....ing gutter you pair of ....ing pricks, and I walked up to one of them street style and offered him the first punch, oh it was brilliant, should of seen his face like a baby, they didn't say a word the look of shock on there cowardly faces were priceless, so f... You parents and coaches remember we are men too with pride, I wish there were more like us,then they might think about opening there fat ugly mouths.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/22/20 10:31 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I was reffing a game once in northshore and I had a pal on the line, well we were getting so much Abuse from these two particular guys that we were concerned for our safety. Now after the game I said to my friend let's deal with this as if we were in a parking lot in Home Depot. So as were walking to our car these two ...holes started in with the abuse. Well me and my friend both from Europe originally, adressed the situation the way we would in every day life, and rather than running and cowering to our car, I said come on then lets ....ing go I'll put you in the ....ing gutter you pair of ....ing pricks, and I walked up to one of them street style and offered him the first punch, oh it was brilliant, should of seen his face like a baby, they didn't say a word the look of shock on there cowardly faces were priceless, so f... You parents and coaches remember we are men too with pride, I wish there were more like us,then they might think about opening there fat ugly mouths.


This could have ended badly if they were two goons instead of paper tigers. The reason it continued after the game is because they paid no price for their misbehavior during the game. They thought you were too scared to take action during the game so they kept it up during a time where it can be dangerous for both parties.

If you had yellow carded their Coach or if that league did not allow it you could have warned the Coach that they would be expelled from the game and it’s environs, the threatening behavior after the game would not have happened.

When bully loudmouths get expelled it ends and they walk away embarrassed and their player children are equally embarrassed. When bullies berate us during the entirety of the game with no sanctions it can escalate worse after the game. If either of you had assaulted them even in self defense all the headline in the newspaper would have said was “Referees Assault Parents at Game” and you would have some serious explaining to do to the police, the league and others. Why would you allow them to carry on throughout the entire game? We need to be better than this.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/23/20 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I was reffing a game once in northshore and I had a pal on the line, well we were getting so much Abuse from these two particular guys that we were concerned for our safety. Now after the game I said to my friend let's deal with this as if we were in a parking lot in Home Depot. So as were walking to our car these two ...holes started in with the abuse. Well me and my friend both from Europe originally, adressed the situation the way we would in every day life, and rather than running and cowering to our car, I said come on then lets ....ing go I'll put you in the ....ing gutter you pair of ....ing pricks, and I walked up to one of them street style and offered him the first punch, oh it was brilliant, should of seen his face like a baby, they didn't say a word the look of shock on there cowardly faces were priceless, so f... You parents and coaches remember we are men too with pride, I wish there were more like us,then they might think about opening there fat ugly mouths.


This could have ended badly if they were two goons instead of paper tigers. The reason it continued after the game is because they paid no price for their misbehavior during the game. They thought you were too scared to take action during the game so they kept it up during a time where it can be dangerous for both parties.

If you had yellow carded their Coach or if that league did not allow it you could have warned the Coach that they would be expelled from the game and it’s environs, the threatening behavior after the game would not have happened.

When bully loudmouths get expelled it ends and they walk away embarrassed and their player children are equally embarrassed. When bullies berate us during the entirety of the game with no sanctions it can escalate worse after the game. If either of you had assaulted them even in self defense all the headline in the newspaper would have said was “Referees Assault Parents at Game” and you would have some serious explaining to do to the police, the league and others. Why would you allow them to carry on throughout the entire game? We need to be better than this.

This! There are procedures and protections in place that would prevent a ref from taking abuse the entire game. Why don't more refs use it? Either the abuse isn't as bad as they later make it out to be, or they're too timid to do what needs to be done. Because refs don't take care of business when they should, that just emboldens the fans. There's a youtube video of a HS game where one parent kept berating the refs. The refs couldn't identify who was the actual culprit, so they ended up ejecting the entire fan base from that school.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/23/20 03:50 PM
Or just too lazy to do the paperwork. Or because places label the refs that deal with it the ref that causes problems.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/23/20 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Or just too lazy to do the paperwork. Or because places label the refs that deal with it the ref that causes problems.

And if the ref doesn't want to handle it, then they shouldn't complain about the consequences. "It hurts when I hit my head with a hammer." So stop hitting yourself with the hammer.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/24/20 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I was reffing a game once in northshore and I had a pal on the line, well we were getting so much Abuse from these two particular guys that we were concerned for our safety. Now after the game I said to my friend let's deal with this as if we were in a parking lot in Home Depot. So as were walking to our car these two ...holes started in with the abuse. Well me and my friend both from Europe originally, adressed the situation the way we would in every day life, and rather than running and cowering to our car, I said come on then lets ....ing go I'll put you in the ....ing gutter you pair of ....ing pricks, and I walked up to one of them street style and offered him the first punch, oh it was brilliant, should of seen his face like a baby, they didn't say a word the look of shock on there cowardly faces were priceless, so f... You parents and coaches remember we are men too with pride, I wish there were more like us,then they might think about opening there fat ugly mouths.



good for you....this is usually the perfect way to handle bullys in school as well.
Once you show you have PRIDE and willing to fight for it...Bullys will RESPECT you and leave you alone....more than likely they will move to another weaker target.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/24/20 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I was reffing a game once in northshore and I had a pal on the line, well we were getting so much Abuse from these two particular guys that we were concerned for our safety. Now after the game I said to my friend let's deal with this as if we were in a parking lot in Home Depot. So as were walking to our car these two ...holes started in with the abuse. Well me and my friend both from Europe originally, adressed the situation the way we would in every day life, and rather than running and cowering to our car, I said come on then lets ....ing go I'll put you in the ....ing gutter you pair of ....ing pricks, and I walked up to one of them street style and offered him the first punch, oh it was brilliant, should of seen his face like a baby, they didn't say a word the look of shock on there cowardly faces were priceless, so f... You parents and coaches remember we are men too with pride, I wish there were more like us,then they might think about opening there fat ugly mouths.



good for you....this is usually the perfect way to handle bullys in school as well.
Once you show you have PRIDE and willing to fight for it...Bullys will RESPECT you and leave you alone....more than likely they will move to another weaker target.


Bullies are Tough who will back off when confronted. So I guess they really are not tough at ALL
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/25/20 12:26 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I was reffing a game once in northshore and I had a pal on the line, well we were getting so much Abuse from these two particular guys that we were concerned for our safety. Now after the game I said to my friend let's deal with this as if we were in a parking lot in Home Depot. So as were walking to our car these two ...holes started in with the abuse. Well me and my friend both from Europe originally, adressed the situation the way we would in every day life, and rather than running and cowering to our car, I said come on then lets ....ing go I'll put you in the ....ing gutter you pair of ....ing pricks, and I walked up to one of them street style and offered him the first punch, oh it was brilliant, should of seen his face like a baby, they didn't say a word the look of shock on there cowardly faces were priceless, so f... You parents and coaches remember we are men too with pride, I wish there were more like us,then they might think about opening there fat ugly mouths.



good for you....this is usually the perfect way to handle bullys in school as well.
Once you show you have PRIDE and willing to fight for it...Bullys will RESPECT you and leave you alone....more than likely they will move to another weaker target.


Bullies are Tough who will back off when confronted. So I guess they really are not tough at ALL


That’s exactly why the best way to take care of a bully is DURING THE GAME when you have the opportunity to draw the line and yellow card the coach for the parent bully. Once you do this the players, parents and coaches get it IMMEDIATELY.
The other thing it does is that you are carrying it out with all these witnesses and it immediately obliterates the bully’s power. It sets the tone and settles everything down and usually improves the enjoyment of the game for everyone. That’s why you have to take care of it right away because it can deteriorate in to a toxic game of disrespect from all.

Players ask me to stop the bullies why would I ignore it and let it get to that point?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/25/20 05:46 PM
To my fellow referees (who are probably not in this forum), are you seriously not re-registering because you have to take a background check and a continuing education class that is 4 hours??

I don't care if there is a shortage, there is no valid reason, in my opinion, that bettering your knowledge of the game is bad thing. Even if you think its boring.

There is very little education being given at the LISRA meetings. In fact, they didn't even start teaching the changes until a week before the fall season started. That is way too late in my opinion because you had to cram a lot of new changes into one meeting, so no questions were even allowed. We spend 2 hours a month at those meetings, so what is a 4 hour class once a year?

Our job is to keep the kids safe and enforce the LOTG, but how can we do that if we are not educated when they change. And changes happen every year.

And yes, the fees should be higher, they are not horrible, but we do have quite a lot of expenses. Better assigning without so much travel in between each game could really help in that area.

We need better recruiting, if a 4 hour class is going to discourage you then this probably isn't the best job to sign up for.

Thanks
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/25/20 09:24 PM
Id like to become a referee. I have some experience in coaching my kids local team and reffing some of their scrimmages and a weekly indoor game that they play. My kids are getting to the age where they dont need my help anymore and Id like to stay connected. Whats the first step?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/25/20 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
To my fellow referees (who are probably not in this forum), are you seriously not re-registering because you have to take a background check and a continuing education class that is 4 hours??

I don't care if there is a shortage, there is no valid reason, in my opinion, that bettering your knowledge of the game is bad thing. Even if you think its boring.

There is very little education being given at the LISRA meetings. In fact, they didn't even start teaching the changes until a week before the fall season started. That is way too late in my opinion because you had to cram a lot of new changes into one meeting, so no questions were even allowed. We spend 2 hours a month at those meetings, so what is a 4 hour class once a year?

Our job is to keep the kids safe and enforce the LOTG, but how can we do that if we are not educated when they change. And changes happen every year.

And yes, the fees should be higher, they are not horrible, but we do have quite a lot of expenses. Better assigning without so much travel in between each game could really help in that area.

We need better recruiting, if a 4 hour class is going to discourage you then this probably isn't the best job to sign up for.

Thanks


It's 11.5 hours plus travel time for new refs between the risk management, the online courses, the in-classroom work and the on-the-field work. That and more than $500 (for 18+) in costs once you add up everything you need to spend money on. That's a pretty big vig for someone who isn't dedicated to spending every weekend on the soccer fields.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/26/20 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Id like to become a referee. I have some experience in coaching my kids local team and reffing some of their scrimmages and a weekly indoor game that they play. My kids are getting to the age where they dont need my help anymore and Id like to stay connected. Whats the first step?

Go here: https://learning.ussoccer.com/referee/
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/26/20 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
To my fellow referees (who are probably not in this forum), are you seriously not re-registering because you have to take a background check and a continuing education class that is 4 hours??

I don't care if there is a shortage, there is no valid reason, in my opinion, that bettering your knowledge of the game is bad thing. Even if you think its boring.

There is very little education being given at the LISRA meetings. In fact, they didn't even start teaching the changes until a week before the fall season started. That is way too late in my opinion because you had to cram a lot of new changes into one meeting, so no questions were even allowed. We spend 2 hours a month at those meetings, so what is a 4 hour class once a year?

Our job is to keep the kids safe and enforce the LOTG, but how can we do that if we are not educated when they change. And changes happen every year.

And yes, the fees should be higher, they are not horrible, but we do have quite a lot of expenses. Better assigning without so much travel in between each game could really help in that area.

We need better recruiting, if a 4 hour class is going to discourage you then this probably isn't the best job to sign up for.

Thanks


It's 11.5 hours plus travel time for new refs between the risk management, the online courses, the in-classroom work and the on-the-field work. That and more than $500 (for 18+) in costs once you add up everything you need to spend money on. That's a pretty big vig for someone who isn't dedicated to spending every weekend on the soccer fields.

My daughter just got her ref license. Granted, she's 14, so she didn't have to deal with the background check. But, as far as time, she spent ~5 hours online over 3 days, then had a four hour field class. That's 9 hours, plus ~1 hour travel (round trip). The certification cost $65.

We just ordered her a "referee starter kit" along with an extra jersey. That was $100. Granted, I'm not in LI, so maybe the costs for the class are more?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/26/20 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
To my fellow referees (who are probably not in this forum), are you seriously not re-registering because you have to take a background check and a continuing education class that is 4 hours??

I don't care if there is a shortage, there is no valid reason, in my opinion, that bettering your knowledge of the game is bad thing. Even if you think its boring.

There is very little education being given at the LISRA meetings. In fact, they didn't even start teaching the changes until a week before the fall season started. That is way too late in my opinion because you had to cram a lot of new changes into one meeting, so no questions were even allowed. We spend 2 hours a month at those meetings, so what is a 4 hour class once a year?

Our job is to keep the kids safe and enforce the LOTG, but how can we do that if we are not educated when they change. And changes happen every year.

And yes, the fees should be higher, they are not horrible, but we do have quite a lot of expenses. Better assigning without so much travel in between each game could really help in that area.

We need better recruiting, if a 4 hour class is going to discourage you then this probably isn't the best job to sign up for.

Thanks


It's 11.5 hours plus travel time for new refs between the risk management, the online courses, the in-classroom work and the on-the-field work. That and more than $500 (for 18+) in costs once you add up everything you need to spend money on. That's a pretty big vig for someone who isn't dedicated to spending every weekend on the soccer fields.

My daughter just got her ref license. Granted, she's 14, so she didn't have to deal with the background check. But, as far as time, she spent ~5 hours online over 3 days, then had a four hour field class. That's 9 hours, plus ~1 hour travel (round trip). The certification cost $65.

We just ordered her a "referee starter kit" along with an extra jersey. That was $100. Granted, I'm not in LI, so maybe the costs for the class are more?


On long island for an adult there is the 90 minute safesport class. Then the 4 hour online class. Then there is the 6 hour "grassroots" class for new refs which is 4 hours of classroom, 2 hours of field work with a half hour break. So really 12 hours overall plus the driving to wherever the closest grassroots class is. It's $30 for the risk management, $190 for the grassroots class (which includes a uniform), $170 for the LISRA union dues and then you still need to buy the alternative color uniforms because the included kit only includes the yellow so figure another $100 for that. And I'm pretty sure that there is another $35 administrative fee in there too.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/26/20 01:42 AM
Obviously to be a referee you have to be committed financially and psychologically. It may seem daunting or time consuming but the players invest a lot more time and money over their playing years and the least the referees can do is to equal that COMMITMENT. It’s ok to do it just for the money but it helps to also have a passion for it. I have yet to meet a referee that hated his job. They may dislike some of the things that happen but they mostly love calling a game.

You have to want to do it and any barriers that are out in place to make it more difficult should not matter.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/26/20 03:14 AM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
You have to want to do it and any barriers that are out in place to make it more difficult should not matter.


But that's the thing. You never really know if you really want to do it, and many people that could be good are reluctant even before the huge barriers.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/26/20 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
To my fellow referees (who are probably not in this forum), are you seriously not re-registering because you have to take a background check and a continuing education class that is 4 hours??

I don't care if there is a shortage, there is no valid reason, in my opinion, that bettering your knowledge of the game is bad thing. Even if you think its boring.

There is very little education being given at the LISRA meetings. In fact, they didn't even start teaching the changes until a week before the fall season started. That is way too late in my opinion because you had to cram a lot of new changes into one meeting, so no questions were even allowed. We spend 2 hours a month at those meetings, so what is a 4 hour class once a year?

Our job is to keep the kids safe and enforce the LOTG, but how can we do that if we are not educated when they change. And changes happen every year.

And yes, the fees should be higher, they are not horrible, but we do have quite a lot of expenses. Better assigning without so much travel in between each game could really help in that area.

We need better recruiting, if a 4 hour class is going to discourage you then this probably isn't the best job to sign up for.

Thanks


It's 11.5 hours plus travel time for new refs between the risk management, the online courses, the in-classroom work and the on-the-field work. That and more than $500 (for 18+) in costs once you add up everything you need to spend money on. That's a pretty big vig for someone who isn't dedicated to spending every weekend on the soccer fields.

My daughter just got her ref license. Granted, she's 14, so she didn't have to deal with the background check. But, as far as time, she spent ~5 hours online over 3 days, then had a four hour field class. That's 9 hours, plus ~1 hour travel (round trip). The certification cost $65.

We just ordered her a "referee starter kit" along with an extra jersey. That was $100. Granted, I'm not in LI, so maybe the costs for the class are more?


On long island for an adult there is the 90 minute safesport class. Then the 4 hour online class. Then there is the 6 hour "grassroots" class for new refs which is 4 hours of classroom, 2 hours of field work with a half hour break. So really 12 hours overall plus the driving to wherever the closest grassroots class is. It's $30 for the risk management, $190 for the grassroots class (which includes a uniform), $170 for the LISRA union dues and then you still need to buy the alternative color uniforms because the included kit only includes the yellow so figure another $100 for that. And I'm pretty sure that there is another $35 administrative fee in there too.

Um, uniform shirts for $100? I think you need to do some better shopping. You use the same shorts and socks, just get an alternative jersey. Order online. They're $35-50 depending on the quality. The $190 for the course is a little high, our course & uniform costs would be $130. And we don't have union dues.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/26/20 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
To my fellow referees (who are probably not in this forum), are you seriously not re-registering because you have to take a background check and a continuing education class that is 4 hours??

I don't care if there is a shortage, there is no valid reason, in my opinion, that bettering your knowledge of the game is bad thing. Even if you think its boring.

There is very little education being given at the LISRA meetings. In fact, they didn't even start teaching the changes until a week before the fall season started. That is way too late in my opinion because you had to cram a lot of new changes into one meeting, so no questions were even allowed. We spend 2 hours a month at those meetings, so what is a 4 hour class once a year?

Our job is to keep the kids safe and enforce the LOTG, but how can we do that if we are not educated when they change. And changes happen every year.

And yes, the fees should be higher, they are not horrible, but we do have quite a lot of expenses. Better assigning without so much travel in between each game could really help in that area.

We need better recruiting, if a 4 hour class is going to discourage you then this probably isn't the best job to sign up for.

Thanks


It's 11.5 hours plus travel time for new refs between the risk management, the online courses, the in-classroom work and the on-the-field work. That and more than $500 (for 18+) in costs once you add up everything you need to spend money on. That's a pretty big vig for someone who isn't dedicated to spending every weekend on the soccer fields.

My daughter just got her ref license. Granted, she's 14, so she didn't have to deal with the background check. But, as far as time, she spent ~5 hours online over 3 days, then had a four hour field class. That's 9 hours, plus ~1 hour travel (round trip). The certification cost $65.

We just ordered her a "referee starter kit" along with an extra jersey. That was $100. Granted, I'm not in LI, so maybe the costs for the class are more?


On long island for an adult there is the 90 minute safesport class. Then the 4 hour online class. Then there is the 6 hour "grassroots" class for new refs which is 4 hours of classroom, 2 hours of field work with a half hour break. So really 12 hours overall plus the driving to wherever the closest grassroots class is. It's $30 for the risk management, $190 for the grassroots class (which includes a uniform), $170 for the LISRA union dues and then you still need to buy the alternative color uniforms because the included kit only includes the yellow so figure another $100 for that. And I'm pretty sure that there is another $35 administrative fee in there too.

Um, uniform shirts for $100? I think you need to do some better shopping. You use the same shorts and socks, just get an alternative jersey. Order online. They're $35-50 depending on the quality. The $190 for the course is a little high, our course & uniform costs would be $130. And we don't have union dues.


Background check for referees is kinda dumb and a waste of time and they should do away with it. All the kids on the field are supervised by the coaches (who already have a back ground check) and the parents....theres just too much bs and stupidity in the world. whats next? you will need to get a background check if you are an expecting parent?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/26/20 03:13 PM
Background checks ARE important because do you want a convicted sex offender near children?
I've left plenty of games where kids are waiting to be picked up by a parent and I, the referee, am the only person left.

Also, it literally takes 2 minutes to fill out the risk mgmt form so time is not an issue and it's free.

All jobs have training. My son had to watch a 2 hour video to work at McDonalds, fill out multiple forms and read manuals.
My daughter trained at a restaurant and didn't even get her full salary til after 8 weeks of training.

If you AR maybe one weekend, you could have all of those fees paid off. Minimum AR fee is from $28-$50 a game. What other job can a 15 year old make that kind of money in cash right away??

This job isn't for everyone.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/26/20 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
You have to want to do it and any barriers that are out in place to make it more difficult should not matter.


But that's the thing. You never really know if you really want to do it, and many people that could be good are reluctant even before the huge barriers.


Exactly, the people that aren't sure but would likely love it once in don't sign up in the first place due to the upfront costs and commitment.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/26/20 05:10 PM
[quote=Anonymous]Background checks ARE important because do you want a convicted sex offender near children?
I've left plenty of games where kids are waiting to be picked up by a parent and I, the referee, am the only person left.

Also, it literally takes 2 minutes to fill out the risk mgmt form so time is not an issue and it's free.

All jobs have training. My son had to watch a 2 hour video to work at McDonalds, fill out multiple forms and read manuals.
My daughter trained at a restaurant and didn't even get her full salary til after 8 weeks of training.

If you AR maybe one weekend, you could have all of those fees paid off. Minimum AR fee is from $28-$50 a game. What other job can a 15 year old make that kind of money in cash right away??

This job isn't for everyone.

You are completely SPOT ON.





[/quote
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/26/20 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
To my fellow referees (who are probably not in this forum), are you seriously not re-registering because you have to take a background check and a continuing education class that is 4 hours??

I don't care if there is a shortage, there is no valid reason, in my opinion, that bettering your knowledge of the game is bad thing. Even if you think its boring.

There is very little education being given at the LISRA meetings. In fact, they didn't even start teaching the changes until a week before the fall season started. That is way too late in my opinion because you had to cram a lot of new changes into one meeting, so no questions were even allowed. We spend 2 hours a month at those meetings, so what is a 4 hour class once a year?

Our job is to keep the kids safe and enforce the LOTG, but how can we do that if we are not educated when they change. And changes happen every year.

And yes, the fees should be higher, they are not horrible, but we do have quite a lot of expenses. Better assigning without so much travel in between each game could really help in that area.

We need better recruiting, if a 4 hour class is going to discourage you then this probably isn't the best job to sign up for.

Thanks


It's 11.5 hours plus travel time for new refs between the risk management, the online courses, the in-classroom work and the on-the-field work. That and more than $500 (for 18+) in costs once you add up everything you need to spend money on. That's a pretty big vig for someone who isn't dedicated to spending every weekend on the soccer fields.

My daughter just got her ref license. Granted, she's 14, so she didn't have to deal with the background check. But, as far as time, she spent ~5 hours online over 3 days, then had a four hour field class. That's 9 hours, plus ~1 hour travel (round trip). The certification cost $65.

We just ordered her a "referee starter kit" along with an extra jersey. That was $100. Granted, I'm not in LI, so maybe the costs for the class are more?


On long island for an adult there is the 90 minute safesport class. Then the 4 hour online class. Then there is the 6 hour "grassroots" class for new refs which is 4 hours of classroom, 2 hours of field work with a half hour break. So really 12 hours overall plus the driving to wherever the closest grassroots class is. It's $30 for the risk management, $190 for the grassroots class (which includes a uniform), $170 for the LISRA union dues and then you still need to buy the alternative color uniforms because the included kit only includes the yellow so figure another $100 for that. And I'm pretty sure that there is another $35 administrative fee in there too.

Um, uniform shirts for $100? I think you need to do some better shopping. You use the same shorts and socks, just get an alternative jersey. Order online. They're $35-50 depending on the quality. The $190 for the course is a little high, our course & uniform costs would be $130. And we don't have union dues.


Most refs walk around with 2 or 3 alternative shirts. Using your figure of $35 to $50 each that's anywhere from $70 to $150.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/26/20 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Background checks ARE important because do you want a convicted sex offender near children?
I've left plenty of games where kids are waiting to be picked up by a parent and I, the referee, am the only person left.

Also, it literally takes 2 minutes to fill out the risk mgmt form so time is not an issue and it's free.

All jobs have training. My son had to watch a 2 hour video to work at McDonalds, fill out multiple forms and read manuals.
My daughter trained at a restaurant and didn't even get her full salary til after 8 weeks of training.

If you AR maybe one weekend, you could have all of those fees paid off. Minimum AR fee is from $28-$50 a game. What other job can a 15 year old make that kind of money in cash right away??

This job isn't for everyone.







Your son who had to watch the 2 hour video to work at McDonalds got paid by McDonalds to do so. And while your daughter may have gotten a reduced salary while training, she was also still getting paid to do so. Refs are being asked to pay for their own training before they earn dime one.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/26/20 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
You have to want to do it and any barriers that are out in place to make it more difficult should not matter.


But that's the thing. You never really know if you really want to do it, and many people that could be good are reluctant even before the huge barriers.


Exactly, the people that aren't sure but would likely love it once in don't sign up in the first place due to the upfront costs and commitment.


If they aren’t sure then no sensible person would want them officiating near any field. Many, many players have to try out for their team. I know back in the day a 16 year old grade 8 referee made $158 after working 5 small sided games that were 50 minute games at a tournament.She got paid on the spot! Where can a young person make that kind of money? The investment of time and uniform items is not that big a deal for most young players because they have paid a lot in practice time and uniform money for their teams. If children can get through this it’s no big deal for any adult that is truly interested.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/26/20 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
You have to want to do it and any barriers that are out in place to make it more difficult should not matter.


But that's the thing. You never really know if you really want to do it, and many people that could be good are reluctant even before the huge barriers.


Exactly, the people that aren't sure but would likely love it once in don't sign up in the first place due to the upfront costs and commitment.


If they aren’t sure then no sensible person would want them officiating near any field. Many, many players have to try out for their team. I know back in the day a 16 year old grade 8 referee made $158 after working 5 small sided games that were 50 minute games at a tournament.She got paid on the spot! Where can a young person make that kind of money? The investment of time and uniform items is not that big a deal for most young players because they have paid a lot in practice time and uniform money for their teams. If children can get through this it’s no big deal for any adult that is truly interested.


Agreed. For the amount of money most parents spend on training fees, with no guarantee in return of anything, at least a new referee (adult or child) will easily recoup any investment made.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/26/20 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Background checks ARE important because do you want a convicted sex offender near children?
I've left plenty of games where kids are waiting to be picked up by a parent and I, the referee, am the only person left.

Also, it literally takes 2 minutes to fill out the risk mgmt form so time is not an issue and it's free.

All jobs have training. My son had to watch a 2 hour video to work at McDonalds, fill out multiple forms and read manuals.
My daughter trained at a restaurant and didn't even get her full salary til after 8 weeks of training.

If you AR maybe one weekend, you could have all of those fees paid off. Minimum AR fee is from $28-$50 a game. What other job can a 15 year old make that kind of money in cash right away??

This job isn't for everyone.







Maybe you are the one that needs to have the back ground check....why the hell are you alone with the kids after the games "many times" (as you said) the only person left? your the ref, the game is over...go the fk home.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/27/20 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous


Most refs walk around with 2 or 3 alternative shirts. Using your figure of $35 to $50 each that's anywhere from $70 to $150.

And they're purchasing those shirts immediately? They *have* to?

This will be my son's 3rd year reffing. Like idiots, yes, we got him a couple alternate jerseys when he first signed up. He's worn yellow EVERY game so far. He'll hopefully do his first tournament this spring, so maybe the alternates will come in handy. So yes, while I'm sure you can spend a couple hundred easily on new uniforms, and whistles, and write on cards, and bags, etc, etc, is it really a requirement just starting out?

I just looked up the game pay for our local rec league. Minimum is $15. Let's say you do three games a day. In two weekends, you've made $180. That covers my daughter's fees for the classes and first uniform. The next weekend, 6 more games and you're up $90. So maybe buy another jersey. Or maybe not.

Upthread, someone said LI pay is minimum $28. Same three games a day, and after four days you've made over $300.

I wish my job (and my kids and my (lack of) physicality) would allow me to ref. Maybe once I'm an empty nester.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/27/20 03:24 AM
if I have to do 90 minutes for safesport I should be able to do online training or webinars instead of the 4 hour class to keep my certifivation
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/27/20 10:13 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
if I have to do 90 minutes for safesport I should be able to do online training or webinars instead of the 4 hour class to keep my certifivation

My son did his recert online.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/28/20 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Background checks ARE important because do you want a convicted sex offender near children?
I've left plenty of games where kids are waiting to be picked up by a parent and I, the referee, am the only person left.

Also, it literally takes 2 minutes to fill out the risk mgmt form so time is not an issue and it's free.

All jobs have training. My son had to watch a 2 hour video to work at McDonalds, fill out multiple forms and read manuals.
My daughter trained at a restaurant and didn't even get her full salary til after 8 weeks of training.

If you AR maybe one weekend, you could have all of those fees paid off. Minimum AR fee is from $28-$50 a game. What other job can a 15 year old make that kind of money in cash right away??

This job isn't for everyone.







Maybe you are the one that needs to have the back ground check....why the hell are you alone with the kids after the games "many times" (as you said) the only person left? your the ref, the game is over...go the fk home.



Mostly because my daughter is an AR. The crew often stays behind to discuss the game or travel together to the next field. I don't know every official she works with, so it is for her safety as well.

But to answer your other question, I've been doing this for 10 years now. Sometimes I have a long drive so I use the restroom. I also like to change out of my uniform before I leave. Some games require paperwork to be filled out before I can leave. If I go to the parking lot and see a kid standing there alone it worries me.

The bigger question, is why wouldn't you want a background check for someone working with and around children? Only someone with something to hide would even question this.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/28/20 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Background checks ARE important because do you want a convicted sex offender near children?
I've left plenty of games where kids are waiting to be picked up by a parent and I, the referee, am the only person left.

Also, it literally takes 2 minutes to fill out the risk mgmt form so time is not an issue and it's free.

All jobs have training. My son had to watch a 2 hour video to work at McDonalds, fill out multiple forms and read manuals.
My daughter trained at a restaurant and didn't even get her full salary til after 8 weeks of training.

If you AR maybe one weekend, you could have all of those fees paid off. Minimum AR fee is from $28-$50 a game. What other job can a 15 year old make that kind of money in cash right away??

This job isn't for everyone.







Your son who had to watch the 2 hour video to work at McDonalds got paid by McDonalds to do so. And while your daughter may have gotten a reduced salary while training, she was also still getting paid to do so. Refs are being asked to pay for their own training before they earn dime one.



He did get paid to watch the videos, this was in reference to the comment complaining about the online course being 4 hours and too long. Kids these days watch tic toc videos for 4 hours like its nothing.
In the end he quit McDonalds because he was making much more money in cash on the weekends and could use the weekday time to focus on school work.

My daughter made less money working 8 weeks then she would have made working one weekend. Also, she had to wait 2 weeks to get paid but as an AR she got paid on the field right away.
She also had to buy nice clothes and shoes for her new job. It took her about 3 months to finally be making a profit and she was on the books at $13 an hour. That's why she became an AR. But yes the startup money to become an AR had to wait one weekend to be paid back.

I will also add, that my kids got to run around outside all weekend, learn additional strategies about the game they love and play, and they made a bunch of new friends. For them it was worth it. Now my son is a CR, so he is bringing home double what he was making as an AR. He recently bought a new car. My daughter bought a laptop after working 2 tournaments.

Again, not for everyone.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/28/20 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Background checks ARE important because do you want a convicted sex offender near children?
I've left plenty of games where kids are waiting to be picked up by a parent and I, the referee, am the only person left.

Also, it literally takes 2 minutes to fill out the risk mgmt form so time is not an issue and it's free.

All jobs have training. My son had to watch a 2 hour video to work at McDonalds, fill out multiple forms and read manuals.
My daughter trained at a restaurant and didn't even get her full salary til after 8 weeks of training.

If you AR maybe one weekend, you could have all of those fees paid off. Minimum AR fee is from $28-$50 a game. What other job can a 15 year old make that kind of money in cash right away??

This job isn't for everyone.







Maybe you are the one that needs to have the back ground check....why the hell are you alone with the kids after the games "many times" (as you said) the only person left? your the ref, the game is over...go the fk home.



Mostly because my daughter is an AR. The crew often stays behind to discuss the game or travel together to the next field. I don't know every official she works with, so it is for her safety as well.

But to answer your other question, I've been doing this for 10 years now. Sometimes I have a long drive so I use the restroom. I also like to change out of my uniform before I leave. Some games require paperwork to be filled out before I can leave. If I go to the parking lot and see a kid standing there alone it worries me.

The bigger question, is why wouldn't you want a background check for someone working with and around children? Only someone with something to hide would even question this.



Yes another question....WHY ARE YOU CHANGING OUT OF YOUR UNIFORM WHILE YOU ARE ALONE IN THE PARKING LOT WITH A KID THERE? Perhaps you do not want to be identified? this is the 2nd time you have possibly incriminated yourself!!!! Very scary indeed.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/28/20 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Background checks ARE important because do you want a convicted sex offender near children?
I've left plenty of games where kids are waiting to be picked up by a parent and I, the referee, am the only person left.

Also, it literally takes 2 minutes to fill out the risk mgmt form so time is not an issue and it's free.

All jobs have training. My son had to watch a 2 hour video to work at McDonalds, fill out multiple forms and read manuals.
My daughter trained at a restaurant and didn't even get her full salary til after 8 weeks of training.

If you AR maybe one weekend, you could have all of those fees paid off. Minimum AR fee is from $28-$50 a game. What other job can a 15 year old make that kind of money in cash right away??

This job isn't for everyone.







Maybe you are the one that needs to have the back ground check....why the hell are you alone with the kids after the games "many times" (as you said) the only person left? your the ref, the game is over...go the fk home.



Mostly because my daughter is an AR. The crew often stays behind to discuss the game or travel together to the next field. I don't know every official she works with, so it is for her safety as well.

But to answer your other question, I've been doing this for 10 years now. Sometimes I have a long drive so I use the restroom. I also like to change out of my uniform before I leave. Some games require paperwork to be filled out before I can leave. If I go to the parking lot and see a kid standing there alone it worries me.

The bigger question, is why wouldn't you want a background check for someone working with and around children? Only someone with something to hide would even question this.



Yes another question....WHY ARE YOU CHANGING OUT OF YOUR UNIFORM WHILE YOU ARE ALONE IN THE PARKING LOT WITH A KID THERE? Perhaps you do not want to be identified? this is the 2nd time you have possibly incriminated yourself!!!! Very scary indeed.



Not OP but you are just being silly now. Ref uniforms are ridiculous and embarrassing to wear anywhere other than on the field. Try stopping at the supermarket or the pub with a ref uniform on and escaping without at least one wise guy (maybe you?)making a comment. On top of which, at least 25 per cent of the time a ref is either soaked to the skin with rain, soaked in sweat or covered in mud after five games on the trot. I am sure you are trolling but try to be realistic.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/28/20 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Background checks ARE important because do you want a convicted sex offender near children?
I've left plenty of games where kids are waiting to be picked up by a parent and I, the referee, am the only person left.

Also, it literally takes 2 minutes to fill out the risk mgmt form so time is not an issue and it's free.

All jobs have training. My son had to watch a 2 hour video to work at McDonalds, fill out multiple forms and read manuals.
My daughter trained at a restaurant and didn't even get her full salary til after 8 weeks of training.

If you AR maybe one weekend, you could have all of those fees paid off. Minimum AR fee is from $28-$50 a game. What other job can a 15 year old make that kind of money in cash right away??

This job isn't for everyone.







Maybe you are the one that needs to have the back ground check....why the hell are you alone with the kids after the games "many times" (as you said) the only person left? your the ref, the game is over...go the fk home.



Mostly because my daughter is an AR. The crew often stays behind to discuss the game or travel together to the next field. I don't know every official she works with, so it is for her safety as well.

But to answer your other question, I've been doing this for 10 years now. Sometimes I have a long drive so I use the restroom. I also like to change out of my uniform before I leave. Some games require paperwork to be filled out before I can leave. If I go to the parking lot and see a kid standing there alone it worries me.

The bigger question, is why wouldn't you want a background check for someone working with and around children? Only someone with something to hide would even question this.



Yes another question....WHY ARE YOU CHANGING OUT OF YOUR UNIFORM WHILE YOU ARE ALONE IN THE PARKING LOT WITH A KID THERE? Perhaps you do not want to be identified? this is the 2nd time you have possibly incriminated yourself!!!! Very scary indeed.

I'm curious, do you have reading comprehension problems? PP said they go to the restroom and change out of their uniform. Some people don't like driving in sweaty clothes, what's wrong with that?

They take care of their business, whether it's going to the restroom, talking to other refs, filling out paperwork, whatever, and go to the parking lot. There they see a young child standing alone. You would rather they just ignore the kid and drive off?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/28/20 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Background checks ARE important because do you want a convicted sex offender near children?
I've left plenty of games where kids are waiting to be picked up by a parent and I, the referee, am the only person left.

Also, it literally takes 2 minutes to fill out the risk mgmt form so time is not an issue and it's free.

All jobs have training. My son had to watch a 2 hour video to work at McDonalds, fill out multiple forms and read manuals.
My daughter trained at a restaurant and didn't even get her full salary til after 8 weeks of training.

If you AR maybe one weekend, you could have all of those fees paid off. Minimum AR fee is from $28-$50 a game. What other job can a 15 year old make that kind of money in cash right away??

This job isn't for everyone.







Maybe you are the one that needs to have the back ground check....why the hell are you alone with the kids after the games "many times" (as you said) the only person left? your the ref, the game is over...go the fk home.



Mostly because my daughter is an AR. The crew often stays behind to discuss the game or travel together to the next field. I don't know every official she works with, so it is for her safety as well.

But to answer your other question, I've been doing this for 10 years now. Sometimes I have a long drive so I use the restroom. I also like to change out of my uniform before I leave. Some games require paperwork to be filled out before I can leave. If I go to the parking lot and see a kid standing there alone it worries me.

The bigger question, is why wouldn't you want a background check for someone working with and around children? Only someone with something to hide would even question this.



Yes another question....WHY ARE YOU CHANGING OUT OF YOUR UNIFORM WHILE YOU ARE ALONE IN THE PARKING LOT WITH A KID THERE? Perhaps you do not want to be identified? this is the 2nd time you have possibly incriminated yourself!!!! Very scary indeed.

I'm curious, do you have reading comprehension problems? PP said they go to the restroom and change out of their uniform. Some people don't like driving in sweaty clothes, what's wrong with that?

They take care of their business, whether it's going to the restroom, talking to other refs, filling out paperwork, whatever, and go to the parking lot. There they see a young child standing alone. You would rather they just ignore the kid and drive off?


If you are a predator moonlighting as a youth soccer referee...YES just drive off.....and who are you? a fkg catholic priest posing as a soccer parent? get the fk outa here!!!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 02/29/20 03:46 PM
Quote
Mostly because my daughter is an AR. The crew often stays behind to discuss the game or travel together to the next field. I don't know every official she works with, so it is for her safety as well.

But to answer your other question, I've been doing this for 10 years now. Sometimes I have a long drive so I use the restroom. I also like to change out of my uniform before I leave. Some games require paperwork to be filled out before I can leave. If I go to the parking lot and see a kid standing there alone it worries me.

The bigger question, is why wouldn't you want a background check for someone working with and around children? Only someone with something to hide would even question this.



Yes another question....WHY ARE YOU CHANGING OUT OF YOUR UNIFORM WHILE YOU ARE ALONE IN THE PARKING LOT WITH A KID THERE? Perhaps you do not want to be identified? this is the 2nd time you have possibly incriminated yourself!!!! Very scary indeed.[/quote]
I'm curious, do you have reading comprehension problems? PP said they go to the restroom and change out of their uniform. Some people don't like driving in sweaty clothes, what's wrong with that?

They take care of their business, whether it's going to the restroom, talking to other refs, filling out paperwork, whatever, and go to the parking lot. There they see a young child standing alone. You would rather they just ignore the kid and drive off? [/quote]

If you are a predator moonlighting as a youth soccer referee...YES just drive off.....and who are you? a fkg catholic priest posing as a soccer parent? get the fk outa here!!!
[/quote]
Wow, defensive much? If you're going to leave a young child by themselves in a public park, go ahead. I'd prefer someone stay with them (don't take them anywhere) and call police on their cell phone.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/03/20 03:17 AM

Why is it that people would question the character of a referee who has had a background check and is hanging around with a child that has been left alone by all the other parents and Coaches? So you referee critics prefer to knock the referee while not saying a word about all the other adults that left a child behind because nobody cared enough? Really?

Don’t be ignorant if you are going to argue something back it up by FACTS. When presented with the facts of the situation you ignore them and prefer to act like anonymous, cowardly trolls. Part of the referee certification/recertification process now includes “SAFESPORT” training, an online training session that teaches all coaches and officials about child sexual abuse, how to spot the clues and to report anything they see immediately. Every adult involved in youth sports today has to take this class.

Referees are a diverse group in many ways. We have doctors, psychologists, police, firemen, teachers, lawyers, retirees, business owners and all sorts of blue and white collar folks. We have Americans whose backgrounds represent just about every country in the world.To impugn the character of many of these individuals is disgusting! All you negative posters are doing is proving that there is a toxic atmosphere around the youth soccer game and this is at the very heart of the referee shortage!

Now for those of you that have a reading comprehension problem we can either end the discussion about the referee shortage OR you can have a moderator start a new forum and criticize anything you want but THIS FORUM is to address the referee shortage and any POSITIVE solutions regarding this issue.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/03/20 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77

Why is it that people would question the character of a referee who has had a background check and is hanging around with a child that has been left alone by all the other parents and Coaches? So you referee critics prefer to knock the referee while not saying a word about all the other adults that left a child behind because nobody cared enough? Really?

Don’t be ignorant if you are going to argue something back it up by FACTS. When presented with the facts of the situation you ignore them and prefer to act like anonymous, cowardly trolls. Part of the referee certification/recertification process now includes “SAFESPORT” training, an online training session that teaches all coaches and officials about child sexual abuse, how to spot the clues and to report anything they see immediately. Every adult involved in youth sports today has to take this class.

Referees are a diverse group in many ways. We have doctors, psychologists, police, firemen, teachers, lawyers, retirees, business owners and all sorts of blue and white collar folks. We have Americans whose backgrounds represent just about every country in the world.To impugn the character of many of these individuals is disgusting! All you negative posters are doing is proving that there is a toxic atmosphere around the youth soccer game and this is at the very heart of the referee shortage!

Now for those of you that have a reading comprehension problem we can either end the discussion about the referee shortage OR you can have a moderator start a new forum and criticize anything you want but THIS FORUM is to address the referee shortage and any POSITIVE solutions regarding this issue.


FYI, background checks only work if someone has a history. If the predator has never done anything wrong in the past and/or has never been convicted of a crime...the back ground check will say OK. BUT if this person is thinking of commiting his 1st crime the back ground check is worthless.

DO NOT BE THE 1st VICTIM....Perhaps we need physiological testing and profiling for anyone involved with and or working around kids....If a certified panel of shrinks say you should not be around kids, and/or own a fire arm...than thats it.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/05/20 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77

Why is it that people would question the character of a referee who has had a background check and is hanging around with a child that has been left alone by all the other parents and Coaches? So you referee critics prefer to knock the referee while not saying a word about all the other adults that left a child behind because nobody cared enough? Really?

Don’t be ignorant if you are going to argue something back it up by FACTS. When presented with the facts of the situation you ignore them and prefer to act like anonymous, cowardly trolls. Part of the referee certification/recertification process now includes “SAFESPORT” training, an online training session that teaches all coaches and officials about child sexual abuse, how to spot the clues and to report anything they see immediately. Every adult involved in youth sports today has to take this class.

Referees are a diverse group in many ways. We have doctors, psychologists, police, firemen, teachers, lawyers, retirees, business owners and all sorts of blue and white collar folks. We have Americans whose backgrounds represent just about every country in the world.To impugn the character of many of these individuals is disgusting! All you negative posters are doing is proving that there is a toxic atmosphere around the youth soccer game and this is at the very heart of the referee shortage!

Now for those of you that have a reading comprehension problem we can either end the discussion about the referee shortage OR you can have a moderator start a new forum and criticize anything you want but THIS FORUM is to address the referee shortage and any POSITIVE solutions regarding this issue.


FYI, background checks only work if someone has a history. If the predator has never done anything wrong in the past and/or has never been convicted of a crime...the back ground check will say OK. BUT if this person is thinking of commiting his 1st crime the back ground check is worthless.

DO NOT BE THE 1st VICTIM....Perhaps we need physiological testing and profiling for anyone involved with and or working around kids....If a certified panel of shrinks say you should not be around kids, and/or own a fire arm...than thats it.


Well regarding referees they are only around children during games whereas Coaches and Trainers are around the children for practices and games. All adults involved in the sport are required to do the background check and of course it will only catch those with a record Captain Obvious! Let’s not get too carried away with talking to PSYCHOLOGISTS because they do not have the skill set to determine if someone is a predator based on an interview. Are lie detectors next?

Back to the forum subject Referee Shortage. Here’s one solution-require clubs to supply one referee per age group team. If your club is a large one then maybe increase the ratio. In other words if your club has 5 U12 teams then require that club to provide 5 referees from their Coach ranks. Have all the Coaches in the club certify as referees and require 5 of them to work games.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/05/20 03:19 PM
its tough enough to find volunteer coaches for little timmys soccer team on the weekends...now you are suggesting they become certified referees as well?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/05/20 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77

Back to the forum subject Referee Shortage. Here’s one solution-require clubs to supply one referee per age group team. If your club is a large one then maybe increase the ratio. In other words if your club has 5 U12 teams then require that club to provide 5 referees from their Coach ranks. Have all the Coaches in the club certify as referees and require 5 of them to work games.

Agree w/PP. It's tough enough to find coaches, much less have them give up even MORE time to ref games.

Treat it like any job... offer enough (whether it's money, free uniforms, free meals, free training, free kids league fee, whatever) and you'll get interest. Actually RECRUIT. The assigner can set up a table on game days with signs like "Make extra cash, spend time outside, etc". Make becoming a ref desirable.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/06/20 12:26 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77

Back to the forum subject Referee Shortage. Here’s one solution-require clubs to supply one referee per age group team. If your club is a large one then maybe increase the ratio. In other words if your club has 5 U12 teams then require that club to provide 5 referees from their Coach ranks. Have all the Coaches in the club certify as referees and require 5 of them to work games.

Agree w/PP. It's tough enough to find coaches, much less have them give up even MORE time to ref games.

Treat it like any job... offer enough (whether it's money, free uniforms, free meals, free training, free kids league fee, whatever) and you'll get interest. Actually RECRUIT. The assigner can set up a table on game days with signs like "Make extra cash, spend time outside, etc". Make becoming a ref desirable.


Well as a former Coach I will tell you that we already have Coaches as referees and they make great referees and I would like more of them to join the ranks. Most Coaches give so much of their time for free, getting paid as a referee allows them to focus on their own performance and the match they work.

It’s different calling a games as a referee than coaching a game with all the emotional involvement. As a referee you don’t care who wins you just try to call a fair game. No tears to wipe after the game just thoughts about how you could have done something better or different.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/06/20 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77

Back to the forum subject Referee Shortage. Here’s one solution-require clubs to supply one referee per age group team. If your club is a large one then maybe increase the ratio. In other words if your club has 5 U12 teams then require that club to provide 5 referees from their Coach ranks. Have all the Coaches in the club certify as referees and require 5 of them to work games.

Agree w/PP. It's tough enough to find coaches, much less have them give up even MORE time to ref games.

Treat it like any job... offer enough (whether it's money, free uniforms, free meals, free training, free kids league fee, whatever) and you'll get interest. Actually RECRUIT. The assigner can set up a table on game days with signs like "Make extra cash, spend time outside, etc". Make becoming a ref desirable.


Well as a former Coach I will tell you that we already have Coaches as referees and they make great referees and I would like more of them to join the ranks. Most Coaches give so much of their time for free, getting paid as a referee allows them to focus on their own performance and the match they work.

It’s different calling a games as a referee than coaching a game with all the emotional involvement. As a referee you don’t care who wins you just try to call a fair game. No tears to wipe after the game just thoughts about how you could have done something better or different.

But there's a difference between CHOOSING to Coach and Ref and being FORCED to. I never said coaches would be bad referees, I think anyone who has an understanding on the game is a good candidate. But you suggested taking the VOLUNTEER coaches and forcing them to ref... means spending money on the classes and the uniforms at minimum AND giving up more time with their family. That sounds like a good idea to you?

Again, treat it like any job, and make the benefit to the worker good enough and you'll have so many applicants, you won't know what to do.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/06/20 01:15 PM
or, or maybe for new referees The upfront costs should be covered (training, classes, certifications, uniforms, etc). They can pay it back over a period of 2-3 months (or what ever duration thats established). after that referee can collect the entire fee for his duties moving forward.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/06/20 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
its tough enough to find volunteer coaches for little timmys soccer team on the weekends...now you are suggesting they become certified referees as well?


People are great at volunteering other people to work more.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/06/20 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
its tough enough to find volunteer coaches for little timmys soccer team on the weekends...now you are suggesting they become certified referees as well?


People are great at volunteering other people to work more.


lol
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/08/20 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
its tough enough to find volunteer coaches for little timmys soccer team on the weekends...now you are suggesting they become certified referees as well?


People are great at volunteering other people to work more.


Who said volunteer work? They would get paid and right before the game which may balance out all the time they have been volunteering!

Nobody has an extra 90 minutes to referee a game after their team plays? Many children referee and then go play for their teams and vice versa. If players can do it so can Coaches, oh wait many Coaches already do it!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/08/20 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
its tough enough to find volunteer coaches for little timmys soccer team on the weekends...now you are suggesting they become certified referees as well?


People are great at volunteering other people to work more.


Who said volunteer work? They would get paid and right before the game which may balance out all the time they have been volunteering!

Nobody has an extra 90 minutes to referee a game after their team plays? Many children referee and then go play for their teams and vice versa. If players can do it so can Coaches, oh wait many Coaches already do it!

But isn't that the choice of the players (and coaches)? What if the coach has another child playing they want to go see? "Sorry, Timmy, I can't come watch your game because I have to ref." You want to take someone who's willing to volunteer multiple hours a week to coach their kids and FORCE them to do another couple of hours? I think that's a good way to lose coaches. I don't care whether you pay them or not.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/08/20 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
its tough enough to find volunteer coaches for little timmys soccer team on the weekends...now you are suggesting they become certified referees as well?


People are great at volunteering other people to work more.


Who said volunteer work? They would get paid and right before the game which may balance out all the time they have been volunteering!

Nobody has an extra 90 minutes to referee a game after their team plays? Many children referee and then go play for their teams and vice versa. If players can do it so can Coaches, oh wait many Coaches already do it!


I didn't say volunteer, i said volunteering others. As in saying that other people should step up as opposed to doing it themselves.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/09/20 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
its tough enough to find volunteer coaches for little timmys soccer team on the weekends...now you are suggesting they become certified referees as well?


People are great at volunteering other people to work more.


Who said volunteer work? They would get paid and right before the game which may balance out all the time they have been volunteering!

Nobody has an extra 90 minutes to referee a game after their team plays? Many children referee and then go play for their teams and vice versa. If players can do it so can Coaches, oh wait many Coaches already do it!

But isn't that the choice of the players (and coaches)? What if the coach has another child playing they want to go see? "Sorry, Timmy, I can't come watch your game because I have to ref." You want to take someone who's willing to volunteer multiple hours a week to coach their kids and FORCE them to do another couple of hours? I think that's a good way to lose coaches. I don't care whether you pay them or not.


Again, we have Coaches that are referees and what you don’t know is that when you are a Coach the referee assignor has your entire game schedule to make sure that you are not scheduled as a referee during your games, so that will not and does not happen!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/10/20 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Again, we have Coaches that are referees and what you don’t know is that when you are a Coach the referee assignor has your entire game schedule to make sure that you are not scheduled as a referee during your games, so that will not and does not happen!

So every coach coaches ALL their kids? Family with two kids. One is U10 and one is U15. Dad coaches the U10 but NOT the U15. U10 plays at 8am and the U15 at 11a. No problem making both games. BUT, you want to keep the coach around to ref at 9am and 10am? I *GUARANTEE* you if you tell coaches they MUST ref, you. will. lose. coaches. It has nothing to do with whether they'd be good refs or not. I don't think you can (nor should you) FORCE volunteers to do another task. Again, make reffing worth it to them. Maybe their kid gets free entry fee. Pay them some more to ref. Make it worth it and they'll show up.
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/10/20 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Again, we have Coaches that are referees and what you don’t know is that when you are a Coach the referee assignor has your entire game schedule to make sure that you are not scheduled as a referee during your games, so that will not and does not happen!

So every coach coaches ALL their kids? Family with two kids. One is U10 and one is U15. Dad coaches the U10 but NOT the U15. U10 plays at 8am and the U15 at 11a. No problem making both games. BUT, you want to keep the coach around to ref at 9am and 10am? I *GUARANTEE* you if you tell coaches they MUST ref, you. will. lose. coaches. It has nothing to do with whether they'd be good refs or not. I don't think you can (nor should you) FORCE volunteers to do another task. Again, make reffing worth it to them. Maybe their kid gets free entry fee. Pay them some more to ref. Make it worth it and they'll show up.



Nobody wants to FORCE anyone to do anything. Clubs should encourage some of their Coaches to become referees. Many clubs have required Coaches to complete referee training to be familiar with the LOTG.

Encouraging Coaches to become referees should include paying for their training fees and some of their uniform start up costs.

Personally I do not want to “force” anyone to do anything because that will lead to unhappy people trying to do a good job which is a bad combination and does not lead to good results. The example you cited is NOT a good candidate to be a referee.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/10/20 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Nobody wants to FORCE anyone to do anything. Clubs should encourage some of their Coaches to become referees. Many clubs have required Coaches to complete referee training to be familiar with the LOTG.

Encouraging Coaches to become referees should include paying for their training fees and some of their uniform start up costs.

Personally I do not want to “force” anyone to do anything because that will lead to unhappy people trying to do a good job which is a bad combination and does not lead to good results. The example you cited is NOT a good candidate to be a referee.

Well, based on your earlier statement, it sure sounded like you wanted to FORCE coaches to become refs...

Quote
Have all the Coaches in the club certify as referees


NOW you come out and say the clubs should pay the training fees and upfront costs.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/10/20 06:49 PM
So here's something interesting I found. According to the State cup rulebook

7.2 REFEREES

7.2.1 A three man certified referee system shall be assigned for all U15 and above age groups. A three man certified referee system shall be assigned for all other age groups whenever available.

So fully expect on Long Island to see only 1 referee for games through U-14. Think about this and wonder why???
Posted By: LIRef77 Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/10/20 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
Nobody wants to FORCE anyone to do anything. Clubs should encourage some of their Coaches to become referees. Many clubs have required Coaches to complete referee training to be familiar with the LOTG.

Encouraging Coaches to become referees should include paying for their training fees and some of their uniform start up costs.

Personally I do not want to “force” anyone to do anything because that will lead to unhappy people trying to do a good job which is a bad combination and does not lead to good results. The example you cited is NOT a good candidate to be a referee.

Well, based on your earlier statement, it sure sounded like you wanted to FORCE coaches to become refs...

Quote
Have all the Coaches in the club certify as referees


NOW you come out and say the clubs should pay the training fees and upfront costs.


I never said have ALL the Coaches certify, and if having the club pay the costs of Coaches to certify as referees encourages Coaches to do it then yes I am in favor of it. Coaches are already dedicated to spending a lot of time around the youth game. I am NOT in favor of paying for others to certify because they are going to make money working games (as will the Coaches) and they will quickly make the money back. Also paying for people not willing to “buy in” gives them no skin in the game.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/11/20 10:49 AM
Originally Posted by LIRef77
I never said have ALL the Coaches certify, and if having the club pay the costs of Coaches to certify as referees encourages Coaches to do it then yes I am in favor of it. Coaches are already dedicated to spending a lot of time around the youth game. I am NOT in favor of paying for others to certify because they are going to make money working games (as will the Coaches) and they will quickly make the money back. Also paying for people not willing to “buy in” gives them no skin in the game.

I certainly respect what you do and your opinions posted on this board. But yes, you DID say "Have all the Coaches in the club certify as referees." That's a direct quote from you in post #734028.

You have a problem with not enough referees. What would McDonalds do if they didn't have enough applicants for an open position? They make the position more "attractive". Maybe offer more money, discounted meals, whatever. Treat this like a business (which it is). If you're waiting for someone to sign up to ref out of the goodness of their hearts, you're going to be waiting a long time.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/11/20 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You have a problem with not enough referees. What would McDonalds do if they didn't have enough applicants for an open position? They make the position more "attractive". Maybe offer more money, discounted meals, whatever. Treat this like a business (which it is). If you're waiting for someone to sign up to ref out of the goodness of their hearts, you're going to be waiting a long time.


What if McDonalds wanted to remain short staffed for higher profits and didn't care about customer complaints or employee morale? Oh, wait. That's how it works. Except the people that want refs to put up what they have to put up with in their own crappy jobs can't understand the refs don't need this.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? - 03/11/20 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You have a problem with not enough referees. What would McDonalds do if they didn't have enough applicants for an open position? They make the position more "attractive". Maybe offer more money, discounted meals, whatever. Treat this like a business (which it is). If you're waiting for someone to sign up to ref out of the goodness of their hearts, you're going to be waiting a long time.


What if McDonalds wanted to remain short staffed for higher profits and didn't care about customer complaints or employee morale? Oh, wait. That's how it works. Except the people that want refs to put up what they have to put up with in their own crappy jobs can't understand the refs don't need this.

What's your point? If the league doesn't want to fill ref positions, that's fine too. This thread is about HOW to fill the positions, so I'm assuming SOMEONE wants them filled and is looking for ideas. Forcing volunteer coaches to ref isn't the answer IMO.
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