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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Surf and KK would make a dangerous pair, especially for LISC and EM. Good Youngers with KK gives Surf some new blood. Could be interesting, don't count slammers out, they will be after KK and all his kids as well


Slammers and KK are a no-go.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Surf and KK would make a dangerous pair, especially for LISC and EM. Good Youngers with KK gives Surf some new blood. Could be interesting, don't count slammers out, they will be after KK and all his kids as well

Surf is not good on Long Island. No real competition on the boys' side at all. Just like KK.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I understand, but both clubs seem to be experiencing some of the same issues and unfortunately may not be around in a few years if they don't do something. Kids have been leaving the town clubs in droves to chase the greener pastures being peddled by the for-profit clubs who are charging $3k-$4k a year. Everyone can bash Tim (personally I do not think he is a good trainer myself) but to say he is all about the money is misleading at best. At the end of the day most teams at LGN pay around $100/month and are competitive with the for-profit clubs. This in of itself is quite impressive considering they do not have the number of players these other clubs do to pull from. As for him having too much control, as a parent at LGN for numerous years I think it may be more a result of no one else in the organization taking the reins.
this is kind of off topic of the SB/LGN merger, but ask yourselves this question....what are all these town clubs doing wrong, that is driving kids away from sports(this is not just a soccer thing) at a rate of 70% by age 14?

I ask this rhetorically because I already know the answer. It's well documented in studies done of youth athletes. It's called they're trying to be something they aren't.

Only elite athletes, and psychotic parents should be chasing the scholarships, and regional/national development programs. They represent the upper end of the bell curve. So the SUSAs of the world exist to serve this group.

But the middle 50-70% needs to have a place to play. With all these clubs trying to keep up with the SUSAs of the world, they alienate the kids who love to play but are still figuring it out, or who are playing soccer as a 2nd/3rd sport. If these town clubs want to continue to exist, they need to attack this demographic and give these kids a place to play where they can play with their friends, compete at a proper level, not chasing some dream they don't have, and cannot attain, and provide a quality sports experience for them, by giving them the best training without the pressure that kids for one, don't give a crap about, and two don't want.

Make the org about the kids, and what they need and want, not what the adults want.

http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/document/0037/9955/Why_kids_play_sports.pdf


The answer to your question is quite simple. The town clubs aren't doing anything "wrong" Most provide a healthy safe environment for your children to develop passion for the game. It's the delusional parents who jump from club to club to chase the next "best" club with trainers that promise scholarships and say "Brilliant" with an English accent that makes parents feel good about throwing their money at them. A small percentage of LI kids play for D-1 and D-2 schools and a smaller % get athletic $ from D-1 and D-2 schools. Your money is better spent on SAT tutors as the $ for academic scholarships outpaces the sports $ many many times over. As to burnout - there are too many clubs, too many leagues and the ratio of training to matches is too low. Too much pressure on kids to perform rather than learn and enjoy.
I agree with your statement of where people should be focusing, but with all these clubs merging and growing to compete for bodies, and dollars, the data suggests you're wrong on what they're doing wrong...because people would not be fleeing sports if indeed they were creating a healthy environment. But that's a discussion over a few beers one day.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Surf and KK would make a dangerous pair, especially for LISC and EM. Good Youngers with KK gives Surf some new blood. Could be interesting, don't count slammers out, they will be after KK and all his kids as well

Surf is not good on Long Island. No real competition on the boys' side at all. Just like KK.

Perhaps with the growing relationship and affiliation between New York 🏄‍♀️ and San Diego Surf coupled with the abilities of KK Atletico they just might surprise you by what they’ll be able to build. TBD

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Surf very good on the girls side, they don't have boys so does KK bring all his boys teams there?

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Originally Posted by Larry Miller
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Surf and KK would make a dangerous pair, especially for LISC and EM. Good Youngers with KK gives Surf some new blood. Could be interesting, don't count slammers out, they will be after KK and all his kids as well

Surf is not good on Long Island. No real competition on the boys' side at all. Just like KK.

Perhaps with the growing relationship and affiliation between New York 🏄‍♀️ and San Diego Surf coupled with the abilities of KK Atletico they just might surprise you by what they’ll be able to build. TBD

Sure, KK and SURF has potential if they knew what they were doing. Fact is both have proven they don't know what they are doing in this market, so don't expect any more than what their track records have demonstrated. What are they going to do different?
For all the SUSA bashing, at least their formula is working, for them, like it or not.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Surf and KK would make a dangerous pair, especially for LISC and EM. Good Youngers with KK gives Surf some new blood. Could be interesting, don't count slammers out, they will be after KK and all his kids as well

Surf is not good on Long Island. No real competition on the boys' side at all. Just like KK.

Perhaps with the growing relationship and affiliation between New York 🏄‍♀️ and San Diego Surf coupled with the abilities of KK Atletico they just might surprise you by what they’ll be able to build. TBD

Sure, KK and SURF has potential if they knew what they were doing. Fact is both have proven they don't know what they are doing in this market, so don't expect any more than what their track records have demonstrated. What are they going to do different?
For all the SUSA bashing, at least their formula is working, for them, like it or not.

Thank you for your uninformed opinion. Obviously you have no idea what is being discussed or who the payers involved are. Your anonymous opinion is just that, an uninformed opinion sans facts or first-hand knowledge.

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Larry what’s your email. I would like to send you an informed email with the truth of the situation so you can properly post what’s going on and not have Mark sideline your information to
Suit his needs.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Larry what’s your email. I would like to send you an informed email with the truth of the situation so you can properly post what’s going on and not have Mark sideline your information to
Suit his needs.


First of all, do not make the mistake that Mark is my source as he is not. My email is larry@backofthenet.com and if you send me anything make sure you disclose who you are because knowing who I am speaking with is critical. If you want to do this without attribution that is very OK, just say so.

FYI, the LGN president and two Stony Brook board members is who I getting my info from, and you will have to have something that is both believable and documented to get my attention.

NEVER make the mistake that when I post I am speaking out of my ass. I doubt I will get an email, but I am hopeful.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Surf and KK would make a dangerous pair, especially for LISC and EM. Good Youngers with KK gives Surf some new blood. Could be interesting, don't count slammers out, they will be after KK and all his kids as well

Surf is not good on Long Island. No real competition on the boys' side at all. Just like KK.

Surf was never good fit on Long Island. Why would you want your kid to play for a west-coast based organization? Do you think they will give your kid more exposure to west coast college coaches? Do a little research. Very few LI players on west coast rosters. Most kids (not all) go to colleges within a 8 hour driving radius of where they live. Most coaches (not all) do most of their recruiting within an 8 hour driving radius of their school. Don't believe me - look at the rosters of college teams. The bigger more well known programs attract the best kids from all over and have the most geographic diversity. If your kid really wants to play at Surf Cup, there are guest player opportunities. I never understood why LI parents went ga-ga over Surf when they first showed up on the already over-crowded LI soccer scene. They may have decent training but there is plenty of that already in the NY metro area.

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You moron, Surf puts all of their players in college. My kid played on the 01 team and every kid got placed in a college. # D1 and the rest d2 and d3. Thats better than most of the other Long Island academies. Also coaching at Surf is as good as anywhere on the island, the fact you said there is already decent training in the metro area shows us that you have no clue

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Originally Posted by LoveThisGame20
As a father of a player that played for him (Tim) I was under no belief that my child was the next great thing all my child wanted to do was to see what they could achieve in the sport. But after a few B.S. conversations (which you will hear) with him to secure my child's commitment to the team and a few good practices, you will notice the defects in the training and coaching starts to show.

To all the SB, run do not hire him, if you like seeing your highly paid trainer sitting in a chair or ground looking like a homeless person collecting cans on the side of the road and having some of his players from other teams run the practice than he is the man for you. Over half the practice will consist of running in the beginning and the end (which my child did on their own time) which does not cost me anything.

He is paid to train soccer not to be a conditioning trainer, and if a kid does not have the conditioning then they should not play (my child included). His teams will enter high level tournaments with alot of travel, which I love and can afford but to watch an 18 player team go to Nationals with 5 kids never coming off the bench is just sad. This is not a pro team is and the child isn’t getting a Scholarship (free education) so playing time should be a given, even 5 or 10 minutes a half.

Just so you are aware my child did play but to see the faces of the players that didn’t was just killing me and my child. So, if your child is in the top 11 or 13 they will see the field, but the rest of the roster are only a 2 legged ATM in his eyes.

My child now plays for a different team for the last year and half and is happy and just to remind the parents reading this HAPPY. Just so all the readers understand I am no snowflake and does not feel every child should get an award, awards and accolades should be earned.

My child does not see teammates being used as an ATM or being told they suck, oh yes you will be paying a person to tell them they suck. He will seem nice at first but no communication with parents, none.

It will be the worst thing you could ever do is hire him, you are better off walking up to your son and kick him in the B@lls since the same look on his face will be the same look he gives you when he sits the bench or 5 games without playing....

I usually just read posts in here, but I have to reply to this one.

From experience, I can attest to the 100% truth of this statement. Financially, also there is a huge conflict of interest as well because as a person who stands to profit, he also serves on the Board of Directors and is involved in decision making which affects his business's profit margin directly. Honestly, I have seen this with two training companies at two different LI soccer clubs and it would only take one really pissed off parent or board member to file a complaint with the IRS or NYC Dept. of Taxation and for them to potentially lose their 501c3 tax exempt status. I'm honestly surprised it hasn't happened already.

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I would also add to the post above that BOTN has confirmed that Tim Graham is taking or has taken the lead role for this acquistion, which is what it is going to be. For that reason look for certain Stony Brook staff and especially players and whole teams leaving after the season.

Timmy's strategy is to wait until the the players register and pay for the Fall season to make the announcement. Mark Nash, if he stays, and David Somma, if he stays will become Tim's bitches. KK and his players and teams are clear about Tim Graham and will be moving out. I expect an announcement from KK within a very short period of time.

I would also like to respond to a request made by Tim Graham for a meeting with Kurt Kelley, CJ Orlando and myself. NO [****] WAY would I ever want to meet or talk to you Tim, and I know that goes for CJ Orlando who you screwed over more than once. Kurt is a gentleman and will stay quiet. Buzzoff Timmy, and get a real job and career instead of hustling kids and parents. You're 52 and time to grow-up.

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Mark Nash heading to Surf with Kelly is my understanding.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Mark Nash heading to Surf with Kelly is my understanding.

That is NOT true.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LoveThisGame20
As a father of a player that played for him (Tim) I was under no belief that my child was the next great thing all my child wanted to do was to see what they could achieve in the sport. But after a few B.S. conversations (which you will hear) with him to secure my child's commitment to the team and a few good practices, you will notice the defects in the training and coaching starts to show.

To all the SB, run do not hire him, if you like seeing your highly paid trainer sitting in a chair or ground looking like a homeless person collecting cans on the side of the road and having some of his players from other teams run the practice than he is the man for you. Over half the practice will consist of running in the beginning and the end (which my child did on their own time) which does not cost me anything.

He is paid to train soccer not to be a conditioning trainer, and if a kid does not have the conditioning then they should not play (my child included). His teams will enter high level tournaments with alot of travel, which I love and can afford but to watch an 18 player team go to Nationals with 5 kids never coming off the bench is just sad. This is not a pro team is and the child isn’t getting a Scholarship (free education) so playing time should be a given, even 5 or 10 minutes a half.

Just so you are aware my child did play but to see the faces of the players that didn’t was just killing me and my child. So, if your child is in the top 11 or 13 they will see the field, but the rest of the roster are only a 2 legged ATM in his eyes.

My child now plays for a different team for the last year and half and is happy and just to remind the parents reading this HAPPY. Just so all the readers understand I am no snowflake and does not feel every child should get an award, awards and accolades should be earned.

My child does not see teammates being used as an ATM or being told they suck, oh yes you will be paying a person to tell them they suck. He will seem nice at first but no communication with parents, none.

It will be the worst thing you could ever do is hire him, you are better off walking up to your son and kick him in the B@lls since the same look on his face will be the same look he gives you when he sits the bench or 5 games without playing....

I usually just read posts in here, but I have to reply to this one.

From experience, I can attest to the 100% truth of this statement. Financially, also there is a huge conflict of interest as well because as a person who stands to profit, he also serves on the Board of Directors and is involved in decision making which affects his business's profit margin directly. Honestly, I have seen this with two training companies at two different LI soccer clubs and it would only take one really pissed off parent or board member to file a complaint with the IRS or NYC Dept. of Taxation and for them to potentially lose their 501c3 tax exempt status. I'm honestly surprised it hasn't happened already.

Regarding Tim Graham on the LGN board here is a reply from the club:

"As per our by-laws, yes, the DOC (whoever it may be) does hold a board position. However, the position is limited in voting privilege. It has no vote on any matters relating to finances, LGN’s structure or our contractual agreement between LGN and the training organization."

As per the BOTN that seems to stink to us!! Now what about the lady on the board being alluded to as Timmy's girlfriend? Does anyone have her ID?

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Checking Guidestar it appears that LGN does not publish its Board of Directors, and has not filed taxes since 2018. You can see ther 2018 990 Tax form by clicking the link below.

Attached PDF document
LGN-2018-990.pdf (797.54 KB, 58 downloads)
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Originally Posted by Larry Miller
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Mark Nash heading to Surf with Kelly is my understanding.

That is NOT true.

Players are saying this is happening.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Mark Nash heading to Surf with Kelly is my understanding.

That is NOT true.

Players are saying this is happening.

As of this writing it is NOT happening. They haven't even spoken to each other. I do know that Mark is being courted by other clubs, but Surf, not yet.

However could it be you're confused and it is the players that going or talking to Surf?

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Originally Posted by Larry Miller
As per the BOTN that seems to stink to us!! Now what about the lady on the board being alluded to as Timmy's girlfriend? Does anyone have her ID?

I think this is how a number of clubs get around it. It's not ironclad protection though - and certainly doesn't negate the fact that there is a clear conflict of interest. Just google "nonvoting board members of nonprofit organizations" and you will see this is not a recommended practice because it could negatively affect the organization AND the nonvoting member legally. Also, these nonvoting board members cannot participate in the discussion nor the vote, so if they are party to the discussion happening and decision-making prior to the actual vote on an issue, the line in the bylaws means nothing.

In terms of ethics, you have to consider nepotism and fraternization issues as well. If there are personal relationships with voting board members and nonvoting board members (or the president of the board), the question really becomes - Is it possible that this member gains an indirect influence in the operations of the organization? Seems like that's a yes.

At any rate, that's their issue to solve (or not).

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
As per the BOTN that seems to stink to us!! Now what about the lady on the board being alluded to as Timmy's girlfriend? Does anyone have her ID?

I think this is how a number of clubs get around it. It's not ironclad protection though - and certainly doesn't negate the fact that there is a clear conflict of interest. Just google "nonvoting board members of nonprofit organizations" and you will see this is not a recommended practice because it could negatively affect the organization AND the nonvoting member legally. Also, these nonvoting board members cannot participate in the discussion nor the vote, so if they are party to the discussion happening and decision-making prior to the actual vote on an issue, the line in the bylaws means nothing.

In terms of ethics, you have to consider nepotism and fraternization issues as well. If there are personal relationships with voting board members and nonvoting board members (or the president of the board), the question really becomes - Is it possible that this member gains an indirect influence in the operations of the organization? Seems like that's a yes.

At any rate, that's their issue to solve (or not).


Should the SB board members who have kids playing at LGN been able to vote on the merger? How is it not a conflict of interest?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Larry Miller
As per the BOTN that seems to stink to us!! Now what about the lady on the board being alluded to as Timmy's girlfriend? Does anyone have her ID?

I think this is how a number of clubs get around it. It's not ironclad protection though - and certainly doesn't negate the fact that there is a clear conflict of interest. Just google "nonvoting board members of nonprofit organizations" and you will see this is not a recommended practice because it could negatively affect the organization AND the nonvoting member legally. Also, these nonvoting board members cannot participate in the discussion nor the vote, so if they are party to the discussion happening and decision-making prior to the actual vote on an issue, the line in the bylaws means nothing.

In terms of ethics, you have to consider nepotism and fraternization issues as well. If there are personal relationships with voting board members and nonvoting board members (or the president of the board), the question really becomes - Is it possible that this member gains an indirect influence in the operations of the organization? Seems like that's a yes.

At any rate, that's their issue to solve (or not).


Should the SB board members who have kids playing at LGN been able to vote on the merger? How is it not a conflict of interest?

How is it you think they care? Obviously this is all about Tim Graham's ability to influence the Ward Family and to totally abandon the thought they may be abusing the players and parents. I have said this before and I will say it again, while these boards say they are in it for the kids, appear to only be in it for either their kid and the trainers are in it for the money.

Your child is nowhere in the top 5 reasons for doing what Stony Brook & LGN are doing. Those of you that register with either club for the Fall who do not get a guarantee of what you are paying for will deserve to get blind-sided.

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Mergers are always rough at the start. Teams get broken up, friendships take a hit. Parents and Players think they belong on A and end up on B etc. Etc...

Some kids and parents liked their coach and now have to prove talent to another one. Some kids and parents might be happy to have a new coach and opportunity.

Why would a board members not care about their own children? Does not mean they are making a bad decision for all? We all want the best trainers.

It is up to each family to do what is best for their own child. Go tryout with all programs. Talk to parents find out about hidden fees, tournaments, coaches personality, Playing time and even ask about team weakness. Talk to the coaches see what system they use, how they see your child fitting in, will they start or have to earn their time. Where does the team practice and play? How many days is training and length?

Do you own research and find the best place for your child to develop.

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Originally Posted by anonymous1974
Mergers are always rough at the start. Teams get broken up, friendships take a hit. Parents and Players think they belong on A and end up on B etc. Etc...

Some kids and parents liked their coach and now have to prove talent to another one. Some kids and parents might be happy to have a new coach and opportunity.

Why would a board members not care about their own children? Does not mean they are making a bad decision for all? We all want the best trainers.

It is up to each family to do what is best for their own child. Go tryout with all programs. Talk to parents find out about hidden fees, tournaments, coaches personality, Playing time and even ask about team weakness. Talk to the coaches see what system they use, how they see your child fitting in, will they start or have to earn their time. Where does the team practice and play? How many days is training and length?

Do you own research and find the best place for your child to develop.

You absolutely right with above, after this weekend we have decided to leave as this club and so called merger is not worth the aggravation that it’s bringing. There is no communication many talking on the sidelines about this and the feeling was mutual from most of the parents that it’s time to go. This club no longer serves a purpose and is failing.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by anonymous1974
Mergers are always rough at the start. Teams get broken up, friendships take a hit. Parents and Players think they belong on A and end up on B etc. Etc...

Some kids and parents liked their coach and now have to prove talent to another one. Some kids and parents might be happy to have a new coach and opportunity.

Why would a board members not care about their own children? Does not mean they are making a bad decision for all? We all want the best trainers.

It is up to each family to do what is best for their own child. Go tryout with all programs. Talk to parents find out about hidden fees, tournaments, coaches personality, Playing time and even ask about team weakness. Talk to the coaches see what system they use, how they see your child fitting in, will they start or have to earn their time. Where does the team practice and play? How many days is training and length?

Do you own research and find the best place for your child to develop.

You absolutely right with above, after this weekend we have decided to leave as this club and so called merger is not worth the aggravation that it’s bringing. There is no communication many talking on the sidelines about this and the feeling was mutual from most of the parents that it’s time to go. This club no longer serves a purpose and is failing.

Welcome to me 18 months ago for my kid.

People need to ask themselves why are you there? Why are you spending the money, the time? Ask yourself does this club on its current trajectory provide for your child, what your child is there for? For my kid, the answer was a resounding no and that's with KK involved, and Mark Nash who while there are issues there, I generally like, and I loved my kid's last trainer/coach there.

For us, Smithtown was the refugee camp we moved to. Are they perfect? No. But they promised XYZ, so far XYZ is what my kid has received. My oldest played in LGN and the Tim Graham [****] show. Everything will get exponentially worse. At least Kurt and Nash are generally honest men. Tim is not. He's a used car salesman dressed in soccer warmups. Run folks. Do not walk, run.

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