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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #732316 01/27/20 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #732324 01/28/20 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.


How do they not have to do more work when the volunteer isn't allowed to make all the calls a real AR can?

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: LIRef77] #732327 01/28/20 08:44 AM
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Word on the street is there are only a third of the refs registered as this time last year. Now you have to do a lot more to be certified, so I hear a lot of them are not bothering, and who can blame them, they have to jump through hoops just to go on the pitch and get abused, get the f... Outer here.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #732330 01/28/20 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Word on the street is there are only a third of the refs registered as this time last year. Now you have to do a lot more to be certified, so I hear a lot of them are not bothering, and who can blame them, they have to jump through hoops just to go on the pitch and get abused, get the f... Outer here.


wear ear plugs while refereeing...problem solved.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #732352 01/28/20 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.


Not that it's a huge issue here but you miss the point that when there are no ARs on a full size field, the ref has to call offside at both ends from a difficult angle, even if he/she is keeping up with the play and also direction on throw ins without assistance. It's usually obvious when the ball has gone out for a throw, the ref does not need parents running the line, they typically make more mistakes than good calls, so best to go without - but having no professionals, even 13 year old kids to stay in line with the second last defender (or the ball if it's behind them) and call direction when they are right next to the play, makes it really tough to call a perfect game. The risk is definitely more crap from the sideline. No biggie with the money but don't say it's the same game, far from it.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: LIRef77] #732365 01/28/20 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.


The issue is that the referee who did not show will not get paid. So now You are paying for a service you did not receive (You pay for 3 no matter what) so where does the $$$$ go?

Its like a BS Union Rule designed to cheat a paying customer.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #732366 01/28/20 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.


The issue is that the referee who did not show will not get paid. So now You are paying for a service you did not receive (You pay for 3 no matter what) so where does the $$$$ go?

Its like a BS Union Rule designed to cheat a paying customer.


While I have never had a CR no show there have been times where an AR was missing. The CR has always returned the fee for the AR to me and the opposing team. No show, no pay.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: LIRef77] #732369 01/28/20 04:03 PM
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BS - CR cant join after the start of the game. Whoever starts in the middle must finish in the middle. And no 2 person team has taken the money for 3 people if they are an AR short

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #732413 01/29/20 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.


The issue is that the referee who did not show will not get paid. So now You are paying for a service you did not receive (You pay for 3 no matter what) so where does the $$$$ go?

Its like a BS Union Rule designed to cheat a paying customer.


While I have never had a CR no show there have been times where an AR was missing. The CR has always returned the fee for the AR to me and the opposing team. No show, no pay.


Exactly, why pay for a service you do not receive! If a referee does not show up, DO NOT PAY FOR THAT ABSENT referee!! Referees are not allowed to collect money for colleagues that have not shown up!

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #732428 01/29/20 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.


The issue is that the referee who did not show will not get paid. So now You are paying for a service you did not receive (You pay for 3 no matter what) so where does the $$$$ go?

Its like a BS Union Rule designed to cheat a paying customer.


That's fine. Just don't expect the 2 refs to perform extra services that they're not getting paid for to cover for your failing to make a good enough offer to reliably get 3 refs.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: LIRef77] #732434 01/29/20 11:40 AM
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the 2 refs that did show will do the best job they can with the resources they have, can't ask for anything more or less.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #732443 01/29/20 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.


The issue is that the referee who did not show will not get paid. So now You are paying for a service you did not receive (You pay for 3 no matter what) so where does the $$$$ go?

Its like a BS Union Rule designed to cheat a paying customer.


That's fine. Just don't expect the 2 refs to perform extra services that they're not getting paid for to cover for your failing to make a good enough offer to reliably get 3 refs.



What extra service can we expect if we paid for all 3 ? Clean up after match? Direct traffic in parking lot? Take it up with your assignor or the 3rd ref who didn’t show. I certainly would if I were you.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #732455 01/29/20 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous

Do the two refs have to do more work and are they going to be taking more crap? Is it their fault there wasn't 3 refs?


No, they don’t have to do more work, center still does center and sideline is handled by one and a volunteer handles other sideline. Refs get the pay they were contracted for. Do you get more money when your co-worker fails to showup for work? Does the volunteer get paid for the ref who failed to show? Nope.


The issue is that the referee who did not show will not get paid. So now You are paying for a service you did not receive (You pay for 3 no matter what) so where does the $$$$ go?

Its like a BS Union Rule designed to cheat a paying customer.


That's fine. Just don't expect the 2 refs to perform extra services that they're not getting paid for to cover for your failing to make a good enough offer to reliably get 3 refs.



What extra service can we expect if we paid for all 3 ? Clean up after match? Direct traffic in parking lot? Take it up with your assignor or the 3rd ref who didn’t show. I certainly would if I were you.[/quote]

All the calls the other AR would have been making. All while you’ll be screaming “you would have gotten that if you had three refs” even if the ref got them all right because he’s a tryhard who ran enough for 2 people. Next time, you can just have a full refund before the game and try again another day.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: LIRef77] #732462 01/29/20 07:37 PM
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You scumbag coaches and parents don't get it still. You are lucky to have any refs, with the way you treat them, go try riffing yourself and you'll see.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #732465 01/29/20 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
You scumbag coaches and parents don't get it still. You are lucky to have any refs, with the way you treat them, go try riffing yourself and you'll see.



Hey Boss, Harvey didn’t show up for work today, Karen and I had to cover him for 90 minutes. Will you pay us his salary today? Sure Tom, you can pick the extra check in Human Resources after you finish your exit interview.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: LIRef77] #732467 01/29/20 10:27 PM
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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #732476 01/30/20 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You scumbag coaches and parents don't get it still. You are lucky to have any refs, with the way you treat them, go try riffing yourself and you'll see.



Hey Boss, Harvey didn’t show up for work today, Karen and I had to cover him for 90 minutes. Will you pay us his salary today? Sure Tom, you can pick the extra check in Human Resources after you finish your exit interview.



ROASTED!!!!!! smile

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: LIRef77] #732482 01/30/20 11:25 AM
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What a sorry state of affairs we have reached when LI Ref puts out a perfectly reasonable question asking how we can help with the ref shortage and the thread morphs into an open state of hostilities between two entrenched camps. It's pathetic and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. How about this answer: stop elevating day-to-day games into anything that seems to matter. Having a ref seems to make parents feel empowered to complain on the sideline but games under U11 really don't need a grown man in a uniform running around after the kids and nothing under U13 should need ARs. There will be a further shortage of ARs this year as many of them can't be bothered to pay $70 and sit through four hours of Lee Suckle pontificating so they can pick up $33 a few times this season while being abused by parents, rained on, or burnt to a crisp. It's easier to work in the local supermarket. So things are going to get worse. There are way too many games that call for officials and I am betting that if the kids scrimmaged and self-reffed, like they do in the park (for those of you that let your kids play pick-up) you'd have a fraction of the issues you have now. It's not really essential that these youngsters' games are played like the world cup final, it's rec ball, so the odd missed offside isn't going to make any difference. As for the refs keeping kids safe, my experience has been that kids and adults too, play cleaner and respect each other more when there is no ref. They get on with it and play for the love of the game. All of this stems from we parents spoiling our kids and making them think any of this matters outside our own egos.

Sorry, LI Ref, I don't think you are going to get any more refs, ENY Referees are not trying hard enough to recruit and as for LISRA? Less said the better. Giving Cathy Caldwell referee of the year is an incentive to all the other hard working refs out there? Fewer games, leagues and teams would be a start and failing that, cut down on the wasted and stretched resources.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #732491 01/30/20 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
What a sorry state of affairs we have reached when LI Ref puts out a perfectly reasonable question asking how we can help with the ref shortage and the thread morphs into an open state of hostilities between two entrenched camps. It's pathetic and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. How about this answer: stop elevating day-to-day games into anything that seems to matter. Having a ref seems to make parents feel empowered to complain on the sideline but games under U11 really don't need a grown man in a uniform running around after the kids and nothing under U13 should need ARs. There will be a further shortage of ARs this year as many of them can't be bothered to pay $70 and sit through four hours of Lee Suckle pontificating so they can pick up $33 a few times this season while being abused by parents, rained on, or burnt to a crisp. It's easier to work in the local supermarket. So things are going to get worse. There are way too many games that call for officials and I am betting that if the kids scrimmaged and self-reffed, like they do in the park (for those of you that let your kids play pick-up) you'd have a fraction of the issues you have now. It's not really essential that these youngsters' games are played like the world cup final, it's rec ball, so the odd missed offside isn't going to make any difference. As for the refs keeping kids safe, my experience has been that kids and adults too, play cleaner and respect each other more when there is no ref. They get on with it and play for the love of the game. All of this stems from we parents spoiling our kids and making them think any of this matters outside our own egos.

Sorry, LI Ref, I don't think you are going to get any more refs, ENY Referees are not trying hard enough to recruit and as for LISRA? Less said the better. Giving Cathy Caldwell referee of the year is an incentive to all the other hard working refs out there? Fewer games, leagues and teams would be a start and failing that, cut down on the wasted and stretched resources.


I think i actually agree with most of what you say. But to suggest that a competitive game (for standings) younger than U13 should be played without referees is a bit stupid and would never work. Rec soccer is played in the park and you don't play for standings....Once you create leagues and you play for standings, the games will become competitive and of course aggressive, you need Referees for this no matter what age you play.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #732492 01/30/20 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
What a sorry state of affairs we have reached when LI Ref puts out a perfectly reasonable question asking how we can help with the ref shortage and the thread morphs into an open state of hostilities between two entrenched camps. It's pathetic and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. How about this answer: stop elevating day-to-day games into anything that seems to matter. Having a ref seems to make parents feel empowered to complain on the sideline but games under U11 really don't need a grown man in a uniform running around after the kids and nothing under U13 should need ARs. There will be a further shortage of ARs this year as many of them can't be bothered to pay $70 and sit through four hours of Lee Suckle pontificating so they can pick up $33 a few times this season while being abused by parents, rained on, or burnt to a crisp. It's easier to work in the local supermarket. So things are going to get worse. There are way too many games that call for officials and I am betting that if the kids scrimmaged and self-reffed, like they do in the park (for those of you that let your kids play pick-up) you'd have a fraction of the issues you have now. It's not really essential that these youngsters' games are played like the world cup final, it's rec ball, so the odd missed offside isn't going to make any difference. As for the refs keeping kids safe, my experience has been that kids and adults too, play cleaner and respect each other more when there is no ref. They get on with it and play for the love of the game. All of this stems from we parents spoiling our kids and making them think any of this matters outside our own egos.

Sorry, LI Ref, I don't think you are going to get any more refs, ENY Referees are not trying hard enough to recruit and as for LISRA? Less said the better. Giving Cathy Caldwell referee of the year is an incentive to all the other hard working refs out there? Fewer games, leagues and teams would be a start and failing that, cut down on the wasted and stretched resources.


I think i actually agree with most of what you say. But to suggest that a competitive game (for standings) younger than U13 should be played without referees is a bit stupid and would never work. Rec soccer is played in the park and you don't play for standings....Once you create leagues and you play for standings, the games will become competitive and of course aggressive, you need Referees for this no matter what age you play.


You got me slightly wrong. I had said no ARs (assistants) for anything under U13 which is when you are full size and no CRs for U9 and even U10 - it's not that it's stupid, there literally just aren't enough refs to go around so there are old guys out there doing ten games a weekend. NYCSL is burning up AR availability for hundreds of games each weekend for small sided U12 games. Now that's stupid. A competent CR can handle a small sided game without a pair of ARs who would be better used on a full sized field somewhere else. Just trying to be practical.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #732497 01/30/20 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
What a sorry state of affairs we have reached when LI Ref puts out a perfectly reasonable question asking how we can help with the ref shortage and the thread morphs into an open state of hostilities between two entrenched camps. It's pathetic and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. How about this answer: stop elevating day-to-day games into anything that seems to matter. Having a ref seems to make parents feel empowered to complain on the sideline but games under U11 really don't need a grown man in a uniform running around after the kids and nothing under U13 should need ARs. There will be a further shortage of ARs this year as many of them can't be bothered to pay $70 and sit through four hours of Lee Suckle pontificating so they can pick up $33 a few times this season while being abused by parents, rained on, or burnt to a crisp. It's easier to work in the local supermarket. So things are going to get worse. There are way too many games that call for officials and I am betting that if the kids scrimmaged and self-reffed, like they do in the park (for those of you that let your kids play pick-up) you'd have a fraction of the issues you have now. It's not really essential that these youngsters' games are played like the world cup final, it's rec ball, so the odd missed offside isn't going to make any difference. As for the refs keeping kids safe, my experience has been that kids and adults too, play cleaner and respect each other more when there is no ref. They get on with it and play for the love of the game. All of this stems from we parents spoiling our kids and making them think any of this matters outside our own egos.

Sorry, LI Ref, I don't think you are going to get any more refs, ENY Referees are not trying hard enough to recruit and as for LISRA? Less said the better. Giving Cathy Caldwell referee of the year is an incentive to all the other hard working refs out there? Fewer games, leagues and teams would be a start and failing that, cut down on the wasted and stretched resources.


I think i actually agree with most of what you say. But to suggest that a competitive game (for standings) younger than U13 should be played without referees is a bit stupid and would never work. Rec soccer is played in the park and you don't play for standings....Once you create leagues and you play for standings, the games will become competitive and of course aggressive, you need Referees for this no matter what age you play.


You got me slightly wrong. I had said no ARs (assistants) for anything under U13 which is when you are full size and no CRs for U9 and even U10 - it's not that it's stupid, there literally just aren't enough refs to go around so there are old guys out there doing ten games a weekend. NYCSL is burning up AR availability for hundreds of games each weekend for small sided U12 games. Now that's stupid. A competent CR can handle a small sided game without a pair of ARs who would be better used on a full sized field somewhere else. Just trying to be practical.



wait a fkg minute!!!! nyclub uses ars at u12????? you are right, that is stupid.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #732502 01/30/20 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
What a sorry state of affairs we have reached when LI Ref puts out a perfectly reasonable question asking how we can help with the ref shortage and the thread morphs into an open state of hostilities between two entrenched camps. It's pathetic and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. How about this answer: stop elevating day-to-day games into anything that seems to matter. Having a ref seems to make parents feel empowered to complain on the sideline but games under U11 really don't need a grown man in a uniform running around after the kids and nothing under U13 should need ARs. There will be a further shortage of ARs this year as many of them can't be bothered to pay $70 and sit through four hours of Lee Suckle pontificating so they can pick up $33 a few times this season while being abused by parents, rained on, or burnt to a crisp. It's easier to work in the local supermarket. So things are going to get worse. There are way too many games that call for officials and I am betting that if the kids scrimmaged and self-reffed, like they do in the park (for those of you that let your kids play pick-up) you'd have a fraction of the issues you have now. It's not really essential that these youngsters' games are played like the world cup final, it's rec ball, so the odd missed offside isn't going to make any difference. As for the refs keeping kids safe, my experience has been that kids and adults too, play cleaner and respect each other more when there is no ref. They get on with it and play for the love of the game. All of this stems from we parents spoiling our kids and making them think any of this matters outside our own egos.

Sorry, LI Ref, I don't think you are going to get any more refs, ENY Referees are not trying hard enough to recruit and as for LISRA? Less said the better. Giving Cathy Caldwell referee of the year is an incentive to all the other hard working refs out there? Fewer games, leagues and teams would be a start and failing that, cut down on the wasted and stretched resources.


I think i actually agree with most of what you say. But to suggest that a competitive game (for standings) younger than U13 should be played without referees is a bit stupid and would never work. Rec soccer is played in the park and you don't play for standings....Once you create leagues and you play for standings, the games will become competitive and of course aggressive, you need Referees for this no matter what age you play.


You got me slightly wrong. I had said no ARs (assistants) for anything under U13 which is when you are full size and no CRs for U9 and even U10 - it's not that it's stupid, there literally just aren't enough refs to go around so there are old guys out there doing ten games a weekend. NYCSL is burning up AR availability for hundreds of games each weekend for small sided U12 games. Now that's stupid. A competent CR can handle a small sided game without a pair of ARs who would be better used on a full sized field somewhere else. Just trying to be practical.



wait a fkg minute!!!! nyclub uses ars at u12????? you are right, that is stupid.



Do you why Grossman uses ARs at U12? I guess you are not aware of 'the deal'.

Let me enlighten y'all....When JSS and NYCSL started, LISRA busted Grossman's balls due to pressure from LIJSL, and more importantly the ENYYSA Refs.

So, with my assistance Grossman became his own assignor. NSRA was name of Grossman's Ref Association. Nassau Suffolk Referee Association. Now, like magic, Grossman was given a spreadsheet with the date for every referee in New York State. I know because I had/have a copy and LISRA went nuts.

So, in the interest of Referee World War 3, Grossman paid the refs more than LIJSL and promised to use more LISRA refs.

Now whether or not that handshake is still in force is moot to me.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Larry Miller] #732503 01/30/20 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Miller
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
What a sorry state of affairs we have reached when LI Ref puts out a perfectly reasonable question asking how we can help with the ref shortage and the thread morphs into an open state of hostilities between two entrenched camps. It's pathetic and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. How about this answer: stop elevating day-to-day games into anything that seems to matter. Having a ref seems to make parents feel empowered to complain on the sideline but games under U11 really don't need a grown man in a uniform running around after the kids and nothing under U13 should need ARs. There will be a further shortage of ARs this year as many of them can't be bothered to pay $70 and sit through four hours of Lee Suckle pontificating so they can pick up $33 a few times this season while being abused by parents, rained on, or burnt to a crisp. It's easier to work in the local supermarket. So things are going to get worse. There are way too many games that call for officials and I am betting that if the kids scrimmaged and self-reffed, like they do in the park (for those of you that let your kids play pick-up) you'd have a fraction of the issues you have now. It's not really essential that these youngsters' games are played like the world cup final, it's rec ball, so the odd missed offside isn't going to make any difference. As for the refs keeping kids safe, my experience has been that kids and adults too, play cleaner and respect each other more when there is no ref. They get on with it and play for the love of the game. All of this stems from we parents spoiling our kids and making them think any of this matters outside our own egos.

Sorry, LI Ref, I don't think you are going to get any more refs, ENY Referees are not trying hard enough to recruit and as for LISRA? Less said the better. Giving Cathy Caldwell referee of the year is an incentive to all the other hard working refs out there? Fewer games, leagues and teams would be a start and failing that, cut down on the wasted and stretched resources.


I think i actually agree with most of what you say. But to suggest that a competitive game (for standings) younger than U13 should be played without referees is a bit stupid and would never work. Rec soccer is played in the park and you don't play for standings....Once you create leagues and you play for standings, the games will become competitive and of course aggressive, you need Referees for this no matter what age you play.


You got me slightly wrong. I had said no ARs (assistants) for anything under U13 which is when you are full size and no CRs for U9 and even U10 - it's not that it's stupid, there literally just aren't enough refs to go around so there are old guys out there doing ten games a weekend. NYCSL is burning up AR availability for hundreds of games each weekend for small sided U12 games. Now that's stupid. A competent CR can handle a small sided game without a pair of ARs who would be better used on a full sized field somewhere else. Just trying to be practical.



wait a fkg minute!!!! nyclub uses ars at u12????? you are right, that is stupid.



Do you why Grossman uses ARs at U12? I guess you are not aware of 'the deal'.

Let me enlighten y'all....When JSS and NYCSL started, LISRA busted Grossman's balls due to pressure from LIJSL, and more importantly the ENYYSA Refs.

So, with my assistance Grossman became his own assignor. NSRA was name of Grossman's Ref Association. Nassau Suffolk Referee Association. Now, like magic, Grossman was given a spreadsheet with the date for every referee in New York State. I know because I had/have a copy and LISRA went nuts.

So, in the interest of Referee World War 3, Grossman paid the refs more than LIJSL and promised to use more LISRA refs.

Now whether or not that handshake is still in force is moot to me.


...In any event, ARs for U12 soccer (kids barely out of diapers, size 4 ball, 9v9 on a small field) is just stupid and whoever thought of this...well whatever....Common sense scores 0 and stupidity scores 1.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #732515 01/30/20 10:39 PM
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So I am looking to become a new ref and they are telling me I have to take the "grass roots" class. The only three classes scheduled are in White Plains, Albany and Oneonta. I guess that they don't really want new refs that badly.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #732527 01/31/20 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
What a sorry state of affairs we have reached when LI Ref puts out a perfectly reasonable question asking how we can help with the ref shortage and the thread morphs into an open state of hostilities between two entrenched camps. It's pathetic and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. How about this answer: stop elevating day-to-day games into anything that seems to matter. Having a ref seems to make parents feel empowered to complain on the sideline but games under U11 really don't need a grown man in a uniform running around after the kids and nothing under U13 should need ARs. There will be a further shortage of ARs this year as many of them can't be bothered to pay $70 and sit through four hours of Lee Suckle pontificating so they can pick up $33 a few times this season while being abused by parents, rained on, or burnt to a crisp. It's easier to work in the local supermarket. So things are going to get worse. There are way too many games that call for officials and I am betting that if the kids scrimmaged and self-reffed, like they do in the park (for those of you that let your kids play pick-up) you'd have a fraction of the issues you have now. It's not really essential that these youngsters' games are played like the world cup final, it's rec ball, so the odd missed offside isn't going to make any difference. As for the refs keeping kids safe, my experience has been that kids and adults too, play cleaner and respect each other more when there is no ref. They get on with it and play for the love of the game. All of this stems from we parents spoiling our kids and making them think any of this matters outside our own egos.

Sorry, LI Ref, I don't think you are going to get any more refs, ENY Referees are not trying hard enough to recruit and as for LISRA? Less said the better. Giving Cathy Caldwell referee of the year is an incentive to all the other hard working refs out there? Fewer games, leagues and teams would be a start and failing that, cut down on the wasted and stretched resources.

No need to apologize to me you kind of crystallized my main points and that is the problem. We will continue to have a shortage and solutions to this problem will not be easy since the problems are quite complex.
Then there are so many competing entities with too many self interests to protect . When my daughters played and I Coached the dominant league was LIJSL. I’m all for the growth of youth soccer but it seems every day there is a new league, a new for profit training organization and political changes in the landscape.

US Soccer decided to restructure the referee grades which to me denigrates Referees that took more challenging recertification tests and were assessed as required by those higher grades(like Grade 7 Referees). Now most referees will be considered “Grass Roots” referees which to many is like getting a demotion without an explanation. Then ENYSRA takes full control of recertification as if the former system was broken. All of this has done nothing for the morale of current referees and has caused a lot of confusion and upheaval. Not something you would want when you need MORE referees not less.
The youth soccer industrial complex is so full of alphabet city competing entities be they Leagues, sanctioning bodies, training organizations, venues, referee associations and while it is all supposed to serve our youth I feel that sometimes that goal gets lost within all the competing entities.

Meanwhile parents are so pressured in to buying in to the idea that if your child is not playing at a certain level then they are failing their children. So they are always shopping around for a “better” experience for their children. As the competition for players heats up parents are spending outrageous amounts of money which to many turns out to be one of the worse investment they can make. It’s like they are chasing the soccer chalice that is not there and would be better off investing in a 529 fund for college.

In effect I believe it is the significant money that they spend that puts so much pressure on their children to “succeed” and the idea that kids should play just to have fun without a focus on winning has vaporized. Are we taking all the fun out of the game?

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