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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #730465 12/03/19 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Since money has been brought up. Think about this.
Parents pay 3k or more (much more with travel expenses)for kids to play soccer.
Officiating falls short of reasonable expectations much of the time.
People get upset when they spend a large sum of money on something and feel like they didn’t receive the “quality product” they expected. I can understand why people get so angry.
I will not get into reff calls because that is a different subject but I will say this. I hate a lazy reff. One that does not want to run. Never in the right position. Calls fouls from 50+ yards. A reff is paid to do a job. If they don’t give a real effort to do that, I would be critical as well. If you are too old, fat, or lazy to do the job, you should be removed from the pool. Parents don’t want to see you half azz it after spending thousands.


You choosing to spend an insane amount of money on kiddie soccer doesn't magically make the referee's any better. The refs get paid the same amount of money whether they are reffing a team that the parents paid $3,000 to be on or $300 to be on. That's your problem, not theirs.

I'd also like to point out that the vast majority of abuse the referees receive is undeserved as the parents, players and coaches simply don't know the rules. Or it was simply impossible for the referee to make the call from their angle.

Lastly, there are some refs that half ass it out there, but that is largely because the leagues are absolutely begging that anyone with a heartbeat come out and ref as many games as possible because the level of abuse out there has driven the size of the referee pool down to below critical levels. Every week there are games that aren't played because there aren't enough referees to go around. So yes, you are going to get some older immobile refs out there that aren't that great in their first game of the weekend, and are especially immobile after the 4th or 5th game that they are begged to cover.



In my 15 years of youth soccer my kids have never had a game cancelled due to having no refs available. As a team manager who pays the officials I have had refs not show up or show up a halftime yet still expect full pay. Also have had 2 refs show but expect the pay for 3.


Three or four weeks ago LIJSL had close to 60 games scheduled with no refs available. Be happy you weren't one of them.


what does this even mean? Does this compare to how many games were scheduled that had referees? my instincts are telling me 60 games with no referees is about 1% or 2% (pretty good in my book as i relate back to my statistics class in college and the standard deviation) nothing is ever 100%.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: LIRef77] #730470 12/03/19 10:17 AM
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You are spot on. I am a "seasoned" referee. 15 years and State Emeritus level. Now I am expected to go and do a 4 hour class plus tests background checks ect. I'm contemplating leaving too. With all the other BS we have to put up with it's just not worth it.
Many referees wont bother.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #730475 12/03/19 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous


Three or four weeks ago LIJSL had close to 60 games scheduled with no refs available. Be happy you weren't one of them.


what does this even mean? Does this compare to how many games were scheduled that had referees? my instincts are telling me 60 games with no referees is about 1% or 2% (pretty good in my book as i relate back to my statistics class in college and the standard deviation) nothing is ever 100%.


60 games not getting assigned refs in a single weekend is terrible. It never used to be like that. It used to be games only didn't have refs because earlier games ran late or the ref got injured during the day. A significant number of games not getting refs assigned to them in the first place is a fairly recent development and is only getting worse.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #730476 12/03/19 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
You are spot on. I am a "seasoned" referee. 15 years and State Emeritus level. Now I am expected to go and do a 4 hour class plus tests background checks ect. I'm contemplating leaving too. With all the other BS we have to put up with it's just not worth it.
Many referees wont bother.


I looked into this for my son. A new AR is looking at not breaking even until about 10 games in with all the various fees involved. Not worth it.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: LIRef77] #730481 12/03/19 01:24 PM
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You are spot on. I am a "seasoned" referee. 15 years and State Emeritus level. Now I am expected to go and do a 4 hour class plus tests background checks ect. I'm contemplating leaving too. With all the other BS we have to put up with it's just not worth it. Many referees wont bother.

Wow, lets break this down.

1. Agreed that refs have to put up with too much BS. This comes down to individual clubs, leagues, etc making sure their parents, coaches and players either exhibit proper behavior or you'll get the boot. Zero tolerance needs to be enforced. I do it with my teams and my club does as well. We have suspended coaches and parents for referee abuse. I support referees on this front.

2. As to your push back on the background check and players safety courses, well every person involved with kids needs to do it, those who get paid and those who are volunteers (coaches, club board members, managers, trainers. It is for the health and well being of the players. How could that possibly be an affront to you?.

3. So you're a 15 year ref with State Emeritus level. Wow, that and 50 cents won't get you on the subway. Why would continuing education to always hone your craft and become better be a bad thing? There are changes to the laws of the game and with the most recent law changes even seasoned refs have gotten it wrong.

To sum this up from my point of view, if you decided to hang up the whistle because the abuse has just become too much and no one is trying on the other end to make things better, I would understand that. But if you are so arrogant that having to do items #'s 2 & 3 above would make you hang the whistle up, then maybe you should. Background checks, child player safety and knowledge should never cause you to stop your craft unless you are as arrogant as your post came across

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #730482 12/03/19 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You are spot on. I am a "seasoned" referee. 15 years and State Emeritus level. Now I am expected to go and do a 4 hour class plus tests background checks ect. I'm contemplating leaving too. With all the other BS we have to put up with it's just not worth it.
Many referees wont bother.


I looked into this for my son. A new AR is looking at not breaking even until about 10 games in with all the various fees involved. Not worth it.



Maybe but don't write it off so quickly. It beats working in the supermarket. lf your son is keen and loves the game and has enough self confidence, he'll pick those ten games up quickly and will soon be able to do several back to back, up to ten in a weekend, if you don't mind dropping him off. Maybe build up to that over a couple of seasons. My own son is seventeen and has been doing it since he turned 13, makes a truckload of money. If you are good, after a while they'll start your son as a CR with the little kids, as it frees up the more experienced refs. Six little games, back to back in one day is $240 plus and you can easily make $500 a weekend if you are fit enough - beats the local King Cullen by a mile. As he gets older, its a very handy way to put beer money aside for college...once he gets better at it, it's easy. A confident teen ref gets more respect from players, coaches and parents alike and once he has some games under his belt, it's the best way out there to make a few dollars. Except when it's raining. Also, reffing's brilliant practice for handling conflict at an early age. Takes balls but if he has it, there's nothing better.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #730486 12/03/19 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
You are spot on. I am a "seasoned" referee. 15 years and State Emeritus level. Now I am expected to go and do a 4 hour class plus tests background checks ect. I'm contemplating leaving too. With all the other BS we have to put up with it's just not worth it.
Many referees wont bother.



Here's a great take on it all from a Scottish ex-player, who still coaches and also refs in Germany; the problem is world-wide. There's some salty language but it's worth a read, especially for those out there who think it good sport to yell at the ref. https://refereetales.blogspot.com/2019/11/why-amateur-refs-are-quitting-in-huge.html

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: Anonymous] #730501 12/03/19 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
You are spot on. I am a "seasoned" referee. 15 years and State Emeritus level. Now I am expected to go and do a 4 hour class plus tests background checks ect. I'm contemplating leaving too. With all the other BS we have to put up with it's just not worth it.
Many referees wont bother.


I looked into this for my son. A new AR is looking at not breaking even until about 10 games in with all the various fees involved. Not worth it.



Maybe but don't write it off so quickly. It beats working in the supermarket. lf your son is keen and loves the game and has enough self confidence, he'll pick those ten games up quickly and will soon be able to do several back to back, up to ten in a weekend, if you don't mind dropping him off. Maybe build up to that over a couple of seasons. My own son is seventeen and has been doing it since he turned 13, makes a truckload of money. If you are good, after a while they'll start your son as a CR with the little kids, as it frees up the more experienced refs. Six little games, back to back in one day is $240 plus and you can easily make $500 a weekend if you are fit enough - beats the local King Cullen by a mile. As he gets older, its a very handy way to put beer money aside for college...once he gets better at it, it's easy. A confident teen ref gets more respect from players, coaches and parents alike and once he has some games under his belt, it's the best way out there to make a few dollars. Except when it's raining. Also, reffing's brilliant practice for handling conflict at an early age. Takes balls but if he has it, there's nothing better.

Not that money should be the only motivator but this poster is spot on and I bet he is so proud of his son to be able to have the “presence” to at this point be a veteran referee and probably quite a good one that is sticking it out. I love working with ARs and working a line as an AR for a young referee that is doing a great job that is not always easy.
What people may not know is that there are many talented young referees that have the potential to become professional referees just like a few of the players. We need these young people to stay in the ranks, they are the future.

I will say that one of my daughters was a Grade 8 referee before she went away to college and during a tournament on Long Island she worked 5 small sided games that were probably 50 minute games. So after 5 hours she was cut a check right at that complex of fields for $158. You do the math. No 16 years old can make that kind of money. I was working large sided fields and was done after 3 games. But I know it sounds corny and hard for cynics to understand but most referees that I know LOVE working games and it’s not just for the money.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: LIRef77] #730520 12/04/19 09:44 AM
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I cant tell you how many games I show up to and ask ask the old timer reffing still hanging in there? and year after year they say one more year... What this new required class and training will do is finally force those oldtimers out and those are the ones that we need to keep. The newbies keep cycling in and out but the veterans have been there consistently for the long haul.

Long Island needs thousands of refs each weekend. This top down mandate is really going to hurt

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: LIRef77] #730593 12/05/19 02:13 PM
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Well many people really underestimate the “old timer”. One silly class will not stop that guy from continuing to be a referee. A lot of these guys do not look their age and can run circles around guys 20 years younger!

Many of these great referees remind me of a crafty veteran baseball pitcher. They may have lost their speed but they have become so intelligent at what they do that they make up for being slower by being able to anticipate so effortlessly. They are still where they need to be and rarely miss a play or a call because of excellent positioning. Their experience trumps everything.
So very many referees continue because of their love of the game. Yes many of them are retired and on fixed incomes and supplement their fixed incomes by reffing games, But they mostly do it for the love of the game. It may sound corny but I have worked with many of these guys and it is a delight because I am in awe of them.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: LIRef77] #730594 12/05/19 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by LIRef77
Well many people really underestimate the “old timer”. One silly class will not stop that guy from continuing to be a referee. A lot of these guys do not look their age and can run circles around guys 20 years younger!

Many of these great referees remind me of a crafty veteran baseball pitcher. They may have lost their speed but they have become so intelligent at what they do that they make up for being slower by being able to anticipate so effortlessly. They are still where they need to be and rarely miss a play or a call because of excellent positioning. Their experience trumps everything.
So very many referees continue because of their love of the game. Yes many of them are retired and on fixed incomes and supplement their fixed incomes by reffing games, But they mostly do it for the love of the game. It may sound corny but I have worked with many of these guys and it is a delight because I am in awe of them.


If you do it for free....than you can say you "Love it" Lets not whore this word out like a cheap punchline. The word "LOVE" is sacred.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: LIRef77] #730600 12/05/19 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by LIRef77
Well many people really underestimate the “old timer”. One silly class will not stop that guy from continuing to be a referee. A lot of these guys do not look their age and can run circles around guys 20 years younger!

Many of these great referees remind me of a crafty veteran baseball pitcher. They may have lost their speed but they have become so intelligent at what they do that they make up for being slower by being able to anticipate so effortlessly. They are still where they need to be and rarely miss a play or a call because of excellent positioning. Their experience trumps everything.
So very many referees continue because of their love of the game. Yes many of them are retired and on fixed incomes and supplement their fixed incomes by reffing games, But they mostly do it for the love of the game. It may sound corny but I have worked with many of these guys and it is a delight because I am in awe of them.

Originally Posted by LIRef77
Well many people really underestimate the “old timer”. One silly class will not stop that guy from continuing to be a referee. A lot of these guys do not look their age and can run circles around guys 20 years younger!

Many of these great referees remind me of a crafty veteran baseball pitcher. They may have lost their speed but they have become so intelligent at what they do that they make up for being slower by being able to anticipate so effortlessly. They are still where they need to be and rarely miss a play or a call because of excellent positioning. Their experience trumps everything.
So very many referees continue because of their love of the game. Yes many of them are retired and on fixed incomes and supplement their fixed incomes by reffing games, But they mostly do it for the love of the game. It may sound corny but I have worked with many of these guys and it is a delight because I am in awe of them.


I agree, but instead of making the process easier it becomes more complicated. NY has only had the online test I think 2 years? CT has had it for 15! And CT tells you which questions you get wrong which NY doesn't do or if they do they just started last year. Let me watch a webinar in my feety pajamas. Let me take the test, tell me what I got wrong and mail me my patch! Every year I show up and wait on a line like cattle. NY is a joke. There has to be a better way

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: LIRef77] #730613 12/05/19 08:07 PM
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I have to agree the technology needs to be supercharged when it comes to recertifying and training overall, especially if we want to reach a big target “audience’” meaning millennials. That demographic is the biggest group now that they outnumber baby boomers and my boomer generation is aging out and needs a lot of new blood. They are the future.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: LIRef77] #730635 12/06/19 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by LIRef77
I have to agree the technology needs to be supercharged when it comes to recertifying and training overall, especially if we want to reach a big target “audience’” meaning millennials. That demographic is the biggest group now that they outnumber baby boomers and my boomer generation is aging out and needs a lot of new blood. They are the future.


You do now realize the ENY has taken over the certification and recertification process. LISRA has nothing to do with this anymore with the exception of finding a venue. Any complaints should be directed square at ENY now.

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Re: Referee Shortage-Solutions? [Re: LIRef77] #730641 12/06/19 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by LIRef77
I have to agree the technology needs to be supercharged when it comes to recertifying and training overall, especially if we want to reach a big target “audience’” meaning millennials. That demographic is the biggest group now that they outnumber baby boomers and my boomer generation is aging out and needs a lot of new blood. They are the future.


You do now realize the ENY has taken over the certification and recertification process. LISRA has nothing to do with this anymore with the exception of finding a venue. Any complaints should be directed square at ENY now.


In reading all this BS. I think I have discovered the problem. As we know there are experienced referees that have been doing this a long time (and generally considered "good" and other new (or recently certified referees).

The problem with the new referees is not there inexperience but the manner in which they are being tested. Your basic test to become a referee is a fkg multiple choice test? (they use multiple choice to test monkeys and apes on there level of intelligence, look it up). We can easily design a referees test so that a monkey can pass it and be certified. Can you imagine having curious george showing up with a florescent shirt, whistle and cards? We can most certainly have this (in many cases we have this already).

Multiple Choice tests are only an indication of memory retention and but does not show any proof for testing the Aptitude of the person taking the test. How do we test the Aptitude of the person applying to become a certified Referee?

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