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#459378 - 01/20/12 05:26 PM Re: LIJSL BU10 Fall 2011 - Spring 2012 [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree completely and add the following:

I understand that it is impossible for the Coordinator to have a firm grasp of all of the teams in an age group and even if the Coordinator did it is still not an exact science to predict how certain teams would match up based upon possible improvement or regression across seasons as well as the “any given Saturday” effect. As such, reliance on previous standings should have some place in the determination process. However, in addition to league play, many of the teams also engage in winter and tournament play. While the Coordinator does not necessarily have the data from these extra-league events, the coaches do and their input should be solicited and included in the process of division determination. Many of the more active programs have teams that have been competing against each other for years and have a pretty good feel for where their program stands in relation to various other programs.

If you completely strip away the ego component, appropriate division placement is extremely important to the development of the children. The more advanced teams need to be challenged by competing against similarly stronger teams and there is really no benefit to placing certain teams in brackets where the end result may officially reflect 5-0 but the eyewitness account says it was 11-0 and it was 5-0 less than ten minutes into the game and the remainder of the match was spent playing keep away or attempting to artificially create a challenge by requiring headers, ten passes before a scoring attempt or otherwise (both teams, coaches and parents) cringing every time a goal is scored.

Similarly, there is a phenomenon of “banding” within each division. A 5th place finisher in a particular division may nonetheless blow the doors off a 2nd place team in the division immediately below. A division placement based upon last season’s results is not in any way going to account for this phenomenon. Certainly the top tier finishers in the next lower division or two merit the right to warrant consideration to move up and probably should on a relegation style format. But to automatically banish 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th place finishers to lower divisions does not account for the fact that there may be very strong play against a group of teams but only 1 team can finish in first place. This is where a solicitation of coaches’ input should come into play so as to identify the bands of teams that should most appropriately compete against each other.

That being said, for the Nassau B-U10 division, the teams that definitively belong in the M division are Elmont Roma, Levittown Gunners, Syosset Gunners, Jericho Legend, Uniondale Hawks. That still leaves four spots open for teams from the Fall N and possibly O. Any alternative placement (other than affirmative voluntary placement) is, in my opinion, a developmental disservice to those programs AND to the programs in the lower divisions that will have to face them in competition.

Certainly the evaluation process is a continually evolving endeavor from season to season and year to year. There will be lopsided scores and well over-matched teams regardless of best efforts when teams move into and out of divisions. However, to create divisions in a vacuum by putting the 1s with other 1s and 2s with 2s, etc. up and down multiple divisions without truly getting a feel for what is actually going on makes very little sense. This creates a scenario where maybe there will be a few interesting games per season on the schedule otherwise the kids are luke-warm interested in attending a game because they know that there will be no challenge (from a win or loss perspective). If we are truly trying to do our best to keep the kids interested in sticking with the game, our best should include utilizing additional resources and a little deeper thought into how to group the teams.

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#459381 - 01/20/12 05:40 PM Re: LIJSL BU10 Fall 2011 - Spring 2012 [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I thought the following strictly followed points with slight modifications for some of the very bottom divisions. LIJSL should take a look:

Originally Posted By: Anonymous
From the end of the fall:

Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Potential Nassau Spring Alignments (assuming bottom 5 NM goes to D2). Completely mechanical based on current (final) standing, no slight intended:

1 Elmont Roma 01
1 Levittown Gunners F.C.
1 Syosset Gunners
1 Jericho Legends
1 Uniondale Hawks
1 Albertson Spurs
1 Garden City Gladiators
1 East Meadow Screaming Eagles
1 Auburndale Wildcats
1 Bethpage Chargers

2 RVC Nitro
2 Auburndale Vipers
2 Lindenhurst Strikers
2 Hicksville Hawks
2 Massapequa Bullets
2 Plainview Old Bethpage Hawks
2 Merrick Rush
2 Syosset Scorpions
2 Garden City Sham-Rockers
2 Floral Park Green Fury

3 Mineola Magic
3 Oceanside Vikings
3 NHP Jaguars
3 New York Hota Gunners
3 Plainedge Pythons
3 Albertson Thunder
3 Massapequa Mayhem
3 Carle Place Cyclones
3 Lynbrook/E. Rockaway Spartans
3 Garden City Titans

4 Manhasset Blizzards
4 Oyster Bay All Stars
4 Franklin Square Earthquakes
4 Island Trees Fusion
4 Hewlett Lawrence Blue Cyclones
4 Locust Valley Flying
4 Bellmore Ice
4 Merrick Strikers
4 NPT/CH Sailors
4 Plainview Old Bethpage Red Bulls FC

5 Roosevelt Rough Riders
5 Valley Stream Cobras
5 RVC Red Fury
5 Auburndale Eagles
5 Oceanside Titans
5 Wantagh Seaford Strikers
5 Levittown Cobras
5 NHP Sabercats
5 Bethpage Blue Bolts
5 Elmont Strikers

6 Port Washington Cobras
6 North Shore Arsenal
6 Woodhaven Wolverines
6 Little Neck Knights
6 Manhasset Revolution
6 East Meadow Galaxy
6 Plainedge Defenders
6 Syosset Heat

7 Jericho Jaguars
7 W. Hempstead Coyotes
7 Manhasset Arsenal
7 Woodhaven Fire
7 Albertson Galaxy
7 RVC Inferno

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#459382 - 01/20/12 05:40 PM Re: LIJSL BU10 Fall 2011 - Spring 2012 [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Anonymous
I don't get it, really. You can see they went strictly by points, the points they finished with in the season they placed all the other teams, regardless of the brackets they were in, in the same divisions for the Spring. Some teams will end up being humiliated when they find themselves playing teams they will be up against, so DON"T blame the coaches, don't blame the 9 and 10 year old for continuing to score even after they are winning by 8 (Show me a ten year old who doesn't like to score when given the chance and I will show you a kid who doesn't belong on a soccer field) but instead blame LIJ for sticking these teams against each other. Absolutely insane

Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
I CAN NOT agree with you more. they moved my sons team up to the "second" division, and they should have been dropped to the 4th. I'm dying here


Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Oh my god... Was someone drinking at LIJSL when they put the Spring divisions together for Boys U10? Or, are they just that clueless?


Someone needs to redo this completely. Or, when teams are being beaten 20-0 do not blame the coaches of the winning teams. Just call the LIJSL offices and ask them what they were thinking. The people on BOTN who suggested division alignments did the job 100 times better than LIJSL's "division coordinators and games committee".



RELAX people all your little pele's, beckhams ect will all go out and play ball
it takes 3 almost four seasons for the divisions to relegate themselves.
The cream will rise to the top and work itself out. , as for teams running up scores this will also happen but you will see some coaches pull players and play shortsided or go to three or four passes ect.. those coaches that donot will be ridiculed on these boards for years to come

I have 2 that play in older groups and ive seen it unfold just enjoy them while they are little they grow up too fast any way... In my humble experience if the coach does not controll the run up of the score you should teach your own to do unto others.........

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#459383 - 01/20/12 05:44 PM Re: LIJSL BU10 Fall 2011 - Spring 2012 [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You people are making the false assumption that anything other than the major divisions (NM and SM) were organized by strength of teams. The fact that one division seemed stronger or weaker than another is largely luck, not because LIJ put any real effort in it.

That's why LIJ goes strictly by points in the U10 age group for the spring. They didn't organize the other divisions by strength and don't care to bother looking further. This year they organized strictly by points. Last year they organized strictly by points. The year before they organized strictly by points and so on and so on.

The ONLY surprise here is that the teams in the major division weren't kept in D1/D2 no matter what their fall record was. Usually they make an exception for them.

And all the complaining in the world will not change what they did with U10. It's how it is.

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#459384 - 01/20/12 05:45 PM Re: LIJSL BU10 Fall 2011 - Spring 2012 [Re: Larry Miller]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Its truley not that important to 9 year olds,
nor should it be to their parents

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#459421 - 01/20/12 09:38 PM Re: LIJSL BU10 Fall 2011 - Spring 2012 [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Tell me what older age group had only the top team from fall U10 Major play in Division 1/Major in the spring? But, had the top 3 from a lower division in the fall put into Division 1/Major in the Spring? In my experience with older age groups they take the top 4 or 5 from fall U10 major and combine them with other division winners Taking into accoutn B and C teams and weker divisions.
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
I don't get it, really. You can se

e they went strictly by points, the points they finished with in the season they placed all the other teams, regardless of the brackets they were in, in the same divisions for the Spring. Some teams will end up being humiliated when they find themselves playing teams they will be up against, so DON"T blame the coaches, don't blame the 9 and 10 year old for continuing to score even after they are winning by 8 (Show me a ten year old who doesn't like to score when given the chance and I will show you a kid who doesn't belong on a soccer field) but instead blame LIJ for sticking these teams against each other. Absolutely insane

Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
I CAN NOT agree with you more. they moved my sons team up to the "second" division, and they should have been dropped to the 4th. I'm dying here


Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Oh my god... Was someone drinking at LIJSL when they put the Spring divisions together for Boys U10? Or, are they just that clueless?


Someone needs to redo this completely. Or, when teams are being beaten 20-0 do not blame the coaches of the winning teams. Just call the LIJSL offices and ask them what they were thinking. The people on BOTN who suggested division alignments did the job 100 times better than LIJSL's "division coordinators and games committee".



RELAX people all your little pele's, beckhams ect will all go out and play ball
it takes 3 almost four seasons for the divisions to relegate themselves.
The cream will rise to the top and work itself out. , as for teams running up scores this will also happen but you will see some coaches pull players and play shortsided or go to three or four passes ect.. those coaches that donot will be ridiculed on these boards for years to come

I have 2 that play in older groups and ive seen it unfold just enjoy them while they are little they grow up too fast any way... In my humble experience if the coach does not controll the run up of the score you should teach your own to do unto others.........

Top
#459428 - 01/20/12 09:52 PM Re: LIJSL BU10 Fall 2011 - Spring 2012 [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Its truley not that important to 9 year olds,
nor should it be to their parents


Your 9 year old obviously has not been playing LIJ travel soccer for 3 seasons, and being told they cannot shoot/score for 75% of those games. No one wants that for a 4th season. SSI looks better every season....

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#459455 - 01/21/12 06:32 AM Re: LIJSL BU10 Fall 2011 - Spring 2012 [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Its truley not that important to 9 year olds,
nor should it be to their parents


Your 9 year old obviously has not been playing LIJ travel soccer for 3 seasons, and being told they cannot shoot/score for 75% of those games. No one wants that for a 4th season. SSI looks better every season....


If you are in D1, even if you are stuck with watered down division winners, the games should still be competative. A 9-0 or 8-1 team is only going to be so "bad" compared to your little super stars.

This is how U10 spring is always done and the divisions are always competative for the top teams. At most you have 1 or 2 teams at the bottom of the division that are going to be slaughtered and they will drop over the summer to where they belong.

Look at previous years U10 threads and you see the same outrage every winter at the placements but if you look at the spring records it works out for the most part.

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#459492 - 01/21/12 11:22 AM Re: LIJSL BU10 Fall 2011 - Spring 2012 [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


They have not always created the alignments in this manner. In the past they would take the top 4 teams from major and combine them with the winners of the other brackets. Deciding alignments based on just points gives the wrong incentive. This is a signal for all clubs to avoid putting teams in major all together.

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#459498 - 01/21/12 12:04 PM Re: LIJSL BU10 Fall 2011 - Spring 2012 [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


That is the most ridiculous statement, no team would ask to play lower divisions so they can win
It would only hurt them the following year.
these teams will level off after 2 seasons relax and enjoy it
If you go 9 and 0 this season next you will be place3 better
dont forget the teams will have 2 expansions and then countys will combine
you will not truley know where you stand on the island until u-13 u- 14

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#459547 - 01/21/12 06:40 PM Re: LIJSL BU10 Fall 2011 - Spring 2012 [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


you people are all idiots and obviously these boys are your first thru the process...dont get so bent out of shape about u-10 division placements, you have years and years of future disappointment ahead of you that you cant even imagine. None of your sons are as good as you think they are, and you havent even seen the best players play yet.

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#459549 - 01/21/12 06:48 PM Re: LIJSL BU10 Fall 2011 - Spring 2012 [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


How is that a ridiculous statement. It obviously worked for teams that opted not to play in major this fall. There were second place B teams taken from the other divisions above the second through fourth place team in NM because they selected to play in a non major division. Their reward was an easier schedule and more points which LIJSL utilized to then create a new NM. Enough of the it levels off in three year crap. LIJSL needs to address the question of having a major division if you only allow the top team to come out of it? One division winner who was grouped with B and C teams was placed over those teams. So once again the message is clear to avoid major n the fall.

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#459555 - 01/21/12 07:37 PM Re: LIJSL BU10 Fall 2011 - Spring 2012 [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Anonymous
How is that a ridiculous statement. It obviously worked for teams that opted not to play in major this fall. There were second place B teams taken from the other divisions above the second through fourth place team in NM because they selected to play in a non major division. Their reward was an easier schedule and more points which LIJSL utilized to then create a new NM. Enough of the it levels off in three year crap. LIJSL needs to address the question of having a major division if you only allow the top team to come out of it? One division winner who was grouped with B and C teams was placed over those teams. So once again the message is clear to avoid major n the fall.


If the teams aren't good enough for D1, they'll lose and drop. I fail to see the problem. A lot of teams are misplaced for the first few seasons. And just being a "B" team doesn't mean a team is bad. If they can win, they can win.

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#459565 - 01/21/12 08:27 PM Re: LIJSL BU10 Fall 2011 - Spring 2012 [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You fail to see the problem because you have not addressed the question of why they had a major division. I never stated that a B team is bad but it makes a difference when you base placement on point totals if you are playing b and c teams rather than A teams. Answer the question of why then anyone would enter the major division? The major division was created a long time ago based on the league tring to make the fall more competitive and balanced and then using it as a spring board for the spring alignments. At this point they should just do it geographically and do away with the pretense of NM and NN. Again answer the question and stop giving an irrelevant justification for the leagues idiocy.

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#459567 - 01/21/12 08:40 PM Re: LIJSL BU10 Fall 2011 - Spring 2012 [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I completely agree that there are parents/coaches on here that think way too highly of their teams/players/kids. Still, I don't think this has anything to do with poor or great teams. It has to do with fun. As a coach of a BU10 team in Suffolk, I know full well that based upon the current alignment my team is going to bored stupid the entire season. I didn't sign my son up for soccer (and coach it) because I'm harboring any delusions about him going pro. In fact, I'd be startled if he even made his 7th grade team (when the time comes). I signed him up for soccer so he could learn about a sport I love, have fun, get plenty of exercise and experience reasonable competition. I am responsible for making sure the boys on my team learn to love the game or at the very least have fun. The games and practices themselves take care of the exercise. All I ask of LIJSL is they take care of the competition part. It is not asking a lot that even recreational teams be placed in an appropriate division. As it is, it appears that the staff put these alignments together without any real thought or consideration to anything other than point. Which is really sad when you consider its their only real responsibility. Because I'm quite certain that some the boys and the parents on these teams will completely lose interest in the sport itself when they are not challenged or completely overwhelmed.

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