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#460985 - 02/02/12 12:32 PM Re: LIJSL Fall Sportsmanship Standings [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
dont overthink it....you will never figure it out.

Teams will come in first one season by a mile and then come in last the next season. No rhyme or reason


I've never seen that, you overexaggerate. I think it is fairly reflectice of the top team and the bottom teams. The middle group could be a bit subjective. If you behave well all year it will show, if you continually dont
do well it also shows.


I've had it happen to me the past 2 seasons. 2 seasons ago we finished dead last and that includes 3 games where we played down because the other team didn't have enough players. Never ran up the score. This year we finished second and that includes a game where I pulled my team off with 10 minutes left because the ref let the game get out of control of which I informed him of such as i tended to my 5th injured player. Same players, same coaches, same parents. Unfortunately it's a crock.

So in your view, the game got out of control and you "informed" the ref. Really, no dissent there. And the parents, I'm sure they were quiet about it. For the record, parents cannot dispute any calls, make comments to the ref, or address them in any way. I'm sure none of that happened either. Those who do not get it probably never will, what a shame.


So share it with the world. what is the break down of scorring... players are what %, parents % coaches % ? If there's a rubric... it should be public. Why not put it on BOTN?

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#460991 - 02/02/12 01:00 PM Re: LIJSL Fall Sportsmanship Standings [Re: Anonymous]
LIRef77 Offline
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Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 426
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
dont overthink it....you will never figure it out.

Teams will come in first one season by a mile and then come in last the next season. No rhyme or reason


I've never seen that, you overexaggerate. I think it is fairly reflectice of the top team and the bottom teams. The middle group could be a bit subjective. If you behave well all year it will show, if you continually dont
do well it also shows.






I've had it happen to me the past 2 seasons. 2 seasons ago we finished dead last and that includes 3 games where we played down because the other team didn't have enough players. Never ran up the score. This year we finished second and that includes a game where I pulled my team off with 10 minutes left because the ref let the game get out of control of which I informed him of such as i tended to my 5th injured player. Same players, same coaches, same parents. Unfortunately it's a crock.

So in your view, the game got out of control and you "informed" the ref. Really, no dissent there. And the parents, I'm sure they were quiet about it. For the record, parents cannot dispute any calls, make comments to the ref, or address them in any way. I'm sure none of that happened either. Those who do not get it probably never will, what a shame.


So share it with the world. what is the break down of scorring... players are what %, parents % coaches % ? If there's a rubric... it should be public. Why not put it on BOTN?


The roster/sportsmanship form is downloadable from the LIJSL site under forms and documents.
Cooperation of Coaches,players and fans is scored 1-10, overall game conduct 1-10, player appearance is 1-5, which includes jerseys tucked in as specified in the LIJSL RULES. A perfect score is 45. Even if the Coach did not receive a yellow card for his parents or coaches he can score very low which can immediately knock that team out of the running. Everybody wants to get a top score because they played down or showed fair play by allowing the other team to have a dropped ball. But if a player, coach,trainer or parent misbehaves the team again takes the big hit and probably gets knocked out of the running. If more than one of these groups violates the zero tolerance policy then I think you get the point. Coaches, players and parents can develop a case of amnesia by forgetting about all the inappropriate behavior displayed around soccer fields. It's in the minority but it's there. Also noted on the bottom of the form is a 5 point penalty for improperly filling out the form by the Coach. In spite of this you need to have the talent of a CIA cryptologist in order to decipher what some coaches hand in for their forms. A U9 player could do a better job! Those are the rules, I don't make them but as a former coach and current referee I take the scoring seriously.

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#461021 - 02/02/12 03:56 PM Re: LIJSL Fall Sportsmanship Standings [Re: Larry Miller]
Anonymous
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I agree with the fact that it is a big crock. My childs team has one the sportsmanship several times, and also been ranked near the bottom several times. Same coaches, same players, and same parents. The only differing factor was the wonderful LIJSL refs. wink

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#461045 - 02/02/12 05:59 PM Re: LIJSL Fall Sportsmanship Standings [Re: LIRef77]
BoardLord Offline
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Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 2642
Loc: Not Possum Gulch, Arizona
Originally Posted By: LIRef77
... Cooperation of Coaches,players and fans is scored 1-10, overall game conduct 1-10, player appearance is 1-5, which includes jerseys tucked in as specified in the LIJSL RULES. A perfect score is 45. ....
Let me share with all of our BOTN Readers when I truly realized that the sportsmanship awards were meaningless. A very close associate and senior LIJSL referee was talking to me at a tournament about the sportsmanship scoring. He proudly announced that he never scored a team above an 8 in any 10 point category since there was always room for improvement.

The result is that a team having this referee could never score above a 37 in any game with this individual at the center. Now, take a look at the chevron breakpoints in a nine game season where 405 points is the maximum award. You will quickly see that my friend's modified scoring system can end a team's chevron pursuit.

Ask for the scoring rubric that accompanies the grid - see the variety of answers that you get. Once you realize the variety of scoring systems, you quickly come to grips with the meaningless nature of the annual sportsmanship scoring.

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#461049 - 02/02/12 06:09 PM Re: LIJSL Fall Sportsmanship Standings [Re: BoardLord]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: BoardLord
Originally Posted By: LIRef77
... Cooperation of Coaches,players and fans is scored 1-10, overall game conduct 1-10, player appearance is 1-5, which includes jerseys tucked in as specified in the LIJSL RULES. A perfect score is 45. ....
Let me share with all of our BOTN Readers when I truly realized that the sportsmanship awards were meaningless. A very close associate and senior LIJSL referee was talking to me at a tournament about the sportsmanship scoring. He proudly announced that he never scored a team above an 8 in any 10 point category since there was always room for improvement.

The result is that a team having this referee could never score above a 37 in any game with this individual at the center. Now, take a look at the chevron breakpoints in a nine game season where 405 points is the maximum award. You will quickly see that my friend's modified scoring system can end a team's chevron pursuit.

Ask for the scoring rubric that accompanies the grid - see the variety of answers that you get. Once you realize the variety of scoring systems, you quickly come to grips with the meaningless nature of the annual sportsmanship scoring.
There is an additional problem also. The parents could be perfect, the players could be perfect and the coach gets on the referee's nerves, the Referee then does not, lets say, give the Coaches cooperation as a zero, he zero's the players and parents as well because they can't take their emotions out of it and score them individually as the criteria requires. (any combo would apply also, coaches are great, parents are not etc etc you get the point)

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#461050 - 02/02/12 06:18 PM Re: LIJSL Fall Sportsmanship Standings [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
dont overthink it....you will never figure it out.

Teams will come in first one season by a mile and then come in last the next season. No rhyme or reason


I've never seen that, you overexaggerate. I think it is fairly reflectice of the top team and the bottom teams. The middle group could be a bit subjective. If you behave well all year it will show, if you continually dont
do well it also shows.


I've had it happen to me the past 2 seasons. 2 seasons ago we finished dead last and that includes 3 games where we played down because the other team didn't have enough players. Never ran up the score. This year we finished second and that includes a game where I pulled my team off with 10 minutes left because the ref let the game get out of control of which I informed him of such as i tended to my 5th injured player. Same players, same coaches, same parents. Unfortunately it's a crock.

So in your view, the game got out of control and you "informed" the ref. Really, no dissent there. And the parents, I'm sure they were quiet about it. For the record, parents cannot dispute any calls, make comments to the ref, or address them in any way. I'm sure none of that happened either. Those who do not get it probably never will, what a shame.
The last post in this sequence has to be by a newbie...lol...First you complete mistook what the other poster wrote second you don't have a clue. This guy is telling the truth. I've been coaching in LIJSL for 11 years total and a minimum of 2 travel teams each season. Same exact stuff happens. 1 team will come in 1st this year the other last, following spring they flip where the one that was first is now last and the one that was last comes in 1st. ONLY variable is the referee's. NOT to mention the fact of the referee losing his copy of the roster so it never gets turned in anyway, or the games the referee doesnt show...System has good intent but seriously seriously flawed

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#461094 - 02/03/12 07:39 AM Re: LIJSL Fall Sportsmanship Standings [Re: Larry Miller]
CoachRR Offline
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Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 1
Hello Larry or anyone out there that has a level head on their shoulders (not some out of control parent who can't comment without losing their composure) (and I've seen quite a bit of that on this commenting site). I'm new to this site and I was looking up the Sportsmanship Standings to see where my team was. We were recognized as receiving such a prestegious award ,(at least that's what I'm telling my 10 year old players) smile I wouldn't want them to read the comments of most of the parent/coaches who have commented here. I teach them to play/dress/& act like a professional at all times on and off the field & you will be recongized like one. So, question I have is: Where do we find the Standings? not the whinning of sore losers cry

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#461095 - 02/03/12 07:49 AM Re: LIJSL Fall Sportsmanship Standings [Re: Larry Miller]
Larry Miller Online   happy
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Loc: Greenwich Village
All of the "standings" are linked in the first post of this thread and in the left side LIJSL SCORES & STANDINGS content island

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#461096 - 02/03/12 07:50 AM Re: LIJSL Fall Sportsmanship Standings [Re: BoardLord]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: BoardLord
Originally Posted By: LIRef77
... Cooperation of Coaches,players and fans is scored 1-10, overall game conduct 1-10, player appearance is 1-5, which includes jerseys tucked in as specified in the LIJSL RULES. A perfect score is 45. ....
Let me share with all of our BOTN Readers when I truly realized that the sportsmanship awards were meaningless. A very close associate and senior LIJSL referee was talking to me at a tournament about the sportsmanship scoring. He proudly announced that he never scored a team above an 8 in any 10 point category since there was always room for improvement.

The result is that a team having this referee could never score above a 37 in any game with this individual at the center. Now, take a look at the chevron breakpoints in a nine game season where 405 points is the maximum award. You will quickly see that my friend's modified scoring system can end a team's chevron pursuit.

Ask for the scoring rubric that accompanies the grid - see the variety of answers that you get. Once you realize the variety of scoring systems, you quickly come to grips with the meaningless nature of the annual sportsmanship scoring.


It may be meaningless to you but when your team gets a patch it sure means something to the winners! Yes there are flaws in the system, but that's the way it is. Maybe it's a scheduling issue but I always thought it took too long to name the winners. Just because some people object to who gets the award this doesn't mean that it's time to scrap it. There have been suggestions that the referees are doing a poor job of rating teams. What other objective arbiter is there available to do this? The referee is still the best candidate to rate the teams! If you relied on Coaches it would be very subjective and unfair. Just because you know ONE referee that told you how he scores does not make the award unfair. If he never gives out a 10 as long as he is consistent that's what matters. It can be similar to the olympic judging where it is known that the "Russian" judge scores athletes higher than the "French" judge on a certain event. If you attend the LIJSL convention and get to watch the awarding of the patches, check the faces on the players! It is very meaningful to THEM! As a former coach and referee I like it when I see a team wearing a patch. It does not affect the way I rate them but it may give me an indicator as to what level of behavior to expect.

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#461098 - 02/03/12 07:55 AM Re: LIJSL Fall Sportsmanship Standings [Re: CoachRR]
LIRef77 Offline
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Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 426
Originally Posted By: CoachRR
Hello Larry or anyone out there that has a level head on their shoulders (not some out of control parent who can't comment without losing their composure) (and I've seen quite a bit of that on this commenting site). I'm new to this site and I was looking up the Sportsmanship Standings to see where my team was. We were recognized as receiving such a prestegious award ,(at least that's what I'm telling my 10 year old players) smile I wouldn't want them to read the comments of most of the parent/coaches who have commented here. I teach them to play/dress/& act like a professional at all times on and off the field & you will be recongized like one. So, question I have is: Where do we find the Standings? not the whinning of sore losers cry


Congratulations to you and your team Coach RR!! Keep up the good work, it's not an easy award to win but it does mean something. Thank you for being a good role model to your players and parents. Don't forget to have your players proudly display their award! Good luck in the Spring!

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#461099 - 02/03/12 08:04 AM Re: LIJSL Fall Sportsmanship Standings [Re: Anonymous]
BoardLord Offline
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Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 2642
Loc: Not Possum Gulch, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Originally Posted By: BoardLord
Ask for the scoring rubric that accompanies the grid - see the variety of answers that you get.

It may be meaningless to you but when your team gets a patch it sure means something to the winners! ... There have been suggestions that the referees are doing a poor job of rating teams. What other objective arbiter is there available to do this? The referee is still the best candidate to rate the teams!
BOTN has pulled the key point from our post and a couple of key points from your post for this response. The point that we were raising is simple. If you cannot find the scoring system (rubrik) that defines the difference between a 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, or 10 score, the scoring is inconsistent and therefore random. If the referee is the best person to rate the teams, one would expect each and every referee to carry the scoring system with them just as they would carry the rules for the State Cup or Long Island Cup. The fact is that they do not carry the rubrik - the rules for scoring.

Now, what does it tell you that they do not carry the rubrik? Do they know where to get a copy? Does a copy even exist? BOTN would be happy to actually share a copy if you could find one.

Quite frankly, we think it is wonderful that your youngsters are excited about winning a chevron or other award. That said, we are asking you to remember it's the random walk that underpins the award.

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#461102 - 02/03/12 08:43 AM Re: LIJSL Fall Sportsmanship Standings [Re: BoardLord]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: BoardLord
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Originally Posted By: BoardLord
Ask for the scoring rubric that accompanies the grid - see the variety of answers that you get.

It may be meaningless to you but when your team gets a patch it sure means something to the winners! ... There have been suggestions that the referees are doing a poor job of rating teams. What other objective arbiter is there available to do this? The referee is still the best candidate to rate the teams!
BOTN has pulled the key point from our post and a couple of key points from your post for this response. The point that we were raising is simple. If you cannot find the scoring system (rubrik) that defines the difference between a 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, or 10 score, the scoring is inconsistent and therefore random. If the referee is the best person to rate the teams, one would expect each and every referee to carry the scoring system with them just as they would carry the rules for the State Cup or Long Island Cup. The fact is that they do not carry the rubrik - the rules for scoring.

Now, what does it tell you that they do not carry the rubrik? Do they know where to get a copy? Does a copy even exist? BOTN would be happy to actually share a copy if you could find one.

Quite frankly, we think it is wonderful that your youngsters are excited about winning a chevron or other award. That said, we are asking you to remember it's the random walk that underpins the award.

Many awards have random and biased elements to their selection, Take baseballs MVP award (Larry, insert Back of the plate plug here). People argue every year that there is no set criteria for what is "valuable". Some voters won't vote for pitchers regardless, some will vote for them if no other regular candidate emerges, some won't vote for a player on a non-playoff team, some won't vote for a player on a losing team. Some voters has local bias or relationships, the list goes on and on. Does that randomness and bias make the MVP award any less prestigous?
I think LIref77 had the best point. Coaches and parents get selective amnesia. They forget that "one time" the match got out of control, or that one or two new players that joined the team over the winter, or that the trainer was showing up for matches last season, or the "only" time they may have dissented. My experience, if your team is last, there is usually a pretty good reason. And if you are first, the team should be celebrated.

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#461103 - 02/03/12 08:44 AM Re: LIJSL Fall Sportsmanship Standings [Re: BoardLord]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just a note... LIJSL will be tallying weekly sportsmanship scores with the standings beginning this coming spring season. If you check the standings you will notice they have already implemented this new functionality. This will not change the different way that each ref will rate you but it will allow the parents and/or coaches to see their score game by game if they check weekly while that particular game is still fresh in their minds.

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#461105 - 02/03/12 08:53 AM Re: LIJSL Fall Sportsmanship Standings [Re: BoardLord]
LIRef77 Offline
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Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 426
There is nothing "random" about the award. BoardLoard I must respectfully disagree with you on this point. It does not diminish the award. While the scoring system can be a mystery to some suffice it to say that teams are penalized for obvious things like getting yellow cards and misbehavior. So when a team does not tuck their shirts in (page 28 of the LIJSL Rulebook), or the captains do not wear an identification band, they will lose points on player appearance. therefore they will not score a 5, and may get something like a 2 or 3. That's not such a big hit. But if they do not pay attention or are disrespectful then that comes under "conduct of players" and they will obviously not score a 9 or 10. When players and coaches get yellow cards it they score less than a 7 or eight in both categories they are done. Losers of the award are not objective enough to be the arbiters of whether the award is valid or not. They conveniently forget the disrespectful behavior, the dissent and the number of cards that were given to their team during the game. Even though you see it at the highest level of games you also rarely see players shake the hand of the referee after the game. This can be a rare event. It may not be part of the scoring but it shows a lack of manners. I have seen Coaches send the wrong message to players by refusing to shake the hand of an opposing Coach which comes under the scoring category of conduct of Coaches. Also I have seen very few examples of "fair play". For example it is customary that when a game is stopped for a dropped ball ALL professional teams let the team that had possession of the ball at the time the action was stopped have the ball. I have seen this during LIJSL only a handful of times. It's not the players fault, the coaches are not teaching them fair play. The same goes for kicking a ball out of play by an opponent when a player is hurt, it rarely happens. While this may not necessarily affect the scoring it shows a lack of sporting behavior. I have also seen overt aggressive behavior like kicking an out of play ball further away to delay the throw-in, a yellow card for delaying the restart and quite unsporting. Coaches forget when that happens perhaps because they are teaching these tactics. The only reason the zero tolerance policy was instituted was because a minority of people are displaying behavior that does not belong on or around the pitch. The concept of this award is a noble one. It's lack of perfection does not diminish the winner's accomplishment. The criteria for the value of this award cannot be determined by critics that have an agenda just because they did not win. Just my opinion as a former coach and referee.

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#461116 - 02/03/12 10:33 AM Re: LIJSL Fall Sportsmanship Standings [Re: LIRef77]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: LIRef77
There is nothing "random" about the award. BoardLoard I must respectfully disagree with you on this point. It does not diminish the award. While the scoring system can be a mystery to some suffice it to say that teams are penalized for obvious things like getting yellow cards and misbehavior. So when a team does not tuck their shirts in (page 28 of the LIJSL Rulebook), or the captains do not wear an identification band, they will lose points on player appearance. therefore they will not score a 5, and may get something like a 2 or 3. That's not such a big hit. But if they do not pay attention or are disrespectful then that comes under "conduct of players" and they will obviously not score a 9 or 10. When players and coaches get yellow cards it they score less than a 7 or eight in both categories they are done. Losers of the award are not objective enough to be the arbiters of whether the award is valid or not. They conveniently forget the disrespectful behavior, the dissent and the number of cards that were given to their team during the game. Even though you see it at the highest level of games you also rarely see players shake the hand of the referee after the game. This can be a rare event. It may not be part of the scoring but it shows a lack of manners. I have seen Coaches send the wrong message to players by refusing to shake the hand of an opposing Coach which comes under the scoring category of conduct of Coaches. Also I have seen very few examples of "fair play". For example it is customary that when a game is stopped for a dropped ball ALL professional teams let the team that had possession of the ball at the time the action was stopped have the ball. I have seen this during LIJSL only a handful of times. It's not the players fault, the coaches are not teaching them fair play. The same goes for kicking a ball out of play by an opponent when a player is hurt, it rarely happens. While this may not necessarily affect the scoring it shows a lack of sporting behavior. I have also seen overt aggressive behavior like kicking an out of play ball further away to delay the throw-in, a yellow card for delaying the restart and quite unsporting. Coaches forget when that happens perhaps because they are teaching these tactics. The only reason the zero tolerance policy was instituted was because a minority of people are displaying behavior that does not belong on or around the pitch. The concept of this award is a noble one. It's lack of perfection does not diminish the winner's accomplishment. The criteria for the value of this award cannot be determined by critics that have an agenda just because they did not win. Just my opinion as a former coach and referee.


Again, I disagree. You keep saying selected amnesia. So how does my team with the same group of parents, players, etc go from dead last to 2nd? I always tell my girls to kick the ball out when a player is injured. I tell my girls on a drop ball due to an injury to let the other team win it. Win or lose I always shake the other coaches hands and tell my girls the same. Even on the game where I pulled my team I had my girls line up. Countless number of times I have seen/ experienced other players refusing to do such. I'm sorry, I know you're a ref and you are protected your brethren but not all of you are perfect. And not all of the coaches, players and parents are perfect. It is a flawed system. It does not work in the current state. It is subject to an opinion of the referees, not a rule. We've all gotten referees on their 3rd + game of the day and they are antagonistic before the game starts. You think they are going to put thought and effort into it? While I agree with the premise, the current system the way it works right now is a sham. Teams should not bounce like a ping pong ball from season to season with the same group of parents/players/coaches.

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